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Post by swamprat on Jun 29, 2011 9:01:16 GMT -6
God or ET? You decideMichael Shermer. Most theists believe God created the universe and everything in it, including stars, planets, and life. My question is this: how could we distinguish an omnipotent and omniscient God or intelligent designer (ID) from an extremely powerful and really smart extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI)? That is, if we go in search of such a being — as both theists and atheists claim to be doing — we encounter a problem that I call Shermer's last law: any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God.My gambit (ET= ID = God) arises from an integration of evolutionary theory, intelligent design creationism, and the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) program, and can be derived from the following observations and deductions. Observation 1: Biological evolution is glacially slow compared to technological evolution. Observation 2: The cosmos is very big and space is very empty, so the probability of making contact with an ETI is very remote. Deduction 1: The probability of making contact with an ETI who is only slightly more advanced than us is virtually nil. Any ETIs we would encounter will either be way behind us (in which case we could only encounter them by landing on their planet) or way ahead of us (in which case we would encounter them either through telecommunications or by their landing on our planet). How far ahead of us is a ETI likely to be? A matter of technological skillObservation 3: Science and technology have changed our world more in the past century than it changed in the previous hundred centuries — it took ten thousand years to get from the cart to the aeroplane, but only sixty-six years to get from powered flight to a lunar landing. Moore's law of computer power doubling every eighteen months continues unabated and is now down to about a year. Computer scientists calculate that there have been thirty-two doublings since World War II and that as early as 2030 we may encounter the singularity — the point at which total computational power will rise to levels that are so far beyond anything we can imagine that they will appear nearly infinite and thus, relatively speaking, be indistinguishable from omniscience. When this happens the world will change more in a decade than it did in the previous thousand decades. Deduction 2: Extrapolate these trend lines out tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years — mere eye blinks on an evolutionary time scale — and we arrive at a realistic estimate of how far advanced an ETI will be. Consider something as relatively simple as DNA. We can already engineer genes after only fifty years of genetic science. An ETI that was fifty thousand years ahead of us would surely be able to construct entire genomes, cells, multicellular life, and complex ecosystems. The design of life, is after all, just a technical problem in molecular manipulation. To our not-so-distant descendants, or to an ETI we might encounter, the ability to create life will be simple a matter of technological skill. Deduction 3: If today we can engineer genes, clone mammals, and manipulate stem cells with science and technologies developed in only the past half century, think of what an ETI could do with fifty thousand years of equivalent powers of progress in science and technology. For an ETI who is a million years more advanced that we are, engineering the creation of planets and stars may be entirely possible. And if universes are created out of collapsing black holes — which some cosmologists think is probable — it is not inconceivable that a sufficiently advanced ETI could even create a universe by triggering the collapse of a star into a black hole. What would we call an intelligent being capable of engineering life, planets, stars, and even universes? If we knew the underlying science and technology used to do the engineering , we would call it an extraterrestrial intelligence, if we did not know the underlying science and technology, we would call it God. This is an edited extract from Michael Shermer's latest book The Believing Brain, published by Henry Holt and Company.www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/06/29/3255755.htm
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Post by god on Jun 29, 2011 10:21:41 GMT -6
God or ET? You decideMichael Shermer. Most theists believe God created the universe and everything in it, including stars, planets, and life. My question is this: how could we distinguish an omnipotent and omniscient God or intelligent designer (ID) from an extremely powerful and really smart extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI)? That is, if we go in search of such a being — as both theists and atheists claim to be doing — we encounter a problem that I call Shermer's last law: any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God.My gambit (ET= ID = God) arises from an integration of evolutionary theory, intelligent design creationism, and the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) program, and can be derived from the following observations and deductions. Observation 1: Biological evolution is glacially slow compared to technological evolution. Observation 2: The cosmos is very big and space is very empty, so the probability of making contact with an ETI is very remote. Deduction 1: The probability of making contact with an ETI who is only slightly more advanced than us is virtually nil. Any ETIs we would encounter will either be way behind us (in which case we could only encounter them by landing on their planet) or way ahead of us (in which case we would encounter them either through telecommunications or by their landing on our planet). How far ahead of us is a ETI likely to be? A matter of technological skillObservation 3: Science and technology have changed our world more in the past century than it changed in the previous hundred centuries — it took ten thousand years to get from the cart to the aeroplane, but only sixty-six years to get from powered flight to a lunar landing. Moore's law of computer power doubling every eighteen months continues unabated and is now down to about a year. Computer scientists calculate that there have been thirty-two doublings since World War II and that as early as 2030 we may encounter the singularity — the point at which total computational power will rise to levels that are so far beyond anything we can imagine that they will appear nearly infinite and thus, relatively speaking, be indistinguishable from omniscience. When this happens the world will change more in a decade than it did in the previous thousand decades. Deduction 2: Extrapolate these trend lines out tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years — mere eye blinks on an evolutionary time scale — and we arrive at a realistic estimate of how far advanced an ETI will be. Consider something as relatively simple as DNA. We can already engineer genes after only fifty years of genetic science. An ETI that was fifty thousand years ahead of us would surely be able to construct entire genomes, cells, multicellular life, and complex ecosystems. The design of life, is after all, just a technical problem in molecular manipulation. To our not-so-distant descendants, or to an ETI we might encounter, the ability to create life will be simple a matter of technological skill. Deduction 3: If today we can engineer genes, clone mammals, and manipulate stem cells with science and technologies developed in only the past half century, think of what an ETI could do with fifty thousand years of equivalent powers of progress in science and technology. For an ETI who is a million years more advanced that we are, engineering the creation of planets and stars may be entirely possible. And if universes are created out of collapsing black holes — which some cosmologists think is probable — it is not inconceivable that a sufficiently advanced ETI could even create a universe by triggering the collapse of a star into a black hole. What would we call an intelligent being capable of engineering life, planets, stars, and even universes? If we knew the underlying science and technology used to do the engineering , we would call it an extraterrestrial intelligence, if we did not know the underlying science and technology, we would call it God. This is an edited extract from Michael Shermer's latest book The Believing Brain, published by Henry Holt and Company.www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/06/29/3255755.htm Shermer's last law: any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God It is my opinion – but then again who am I to give an opinion on such a statement – that this assertion is flawed. First off it implies that only extraterrestrial intelligence (some one please define what’s understood by intelligence) could achieve a level of development that would make them undistinguishable from God , in addition to the fact that the point of reference is also left outside the equation…I understand he is basically saying that only the most advanced “intelligence” ever developed would not need to believe in a God. The rest I will leave for debate… GOD
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 10:42:18 GMT -6
~chuckling~ Not that Swampy didn't realize he might get a reaction from that one The synopsis is flawed: (in my humble opinion of course) I give my own experience as example..I have had dealings with both. Abducted by beings of advanced intelligence and a recipient of Godly miracles and messages both when I died and when fully conscious. The hand that belongs to God is a much different hand..than the ones who captured my friend and I. One is the very essence and definition of compassion and the other the absence of it. It's beginning to fascinate me. People trying to prove the existence of 'space aliens' and people trying to prove the existence of God. God and faith go hand in hand..either you understand and believe or you don't. There are no atheists in fox holes. I guess the idea there is that if you happen to be in the proximity of death you pray just in case. I'd be insulted..good thing God doesn't seem to mind. I think the article was written by someone still trying to make up his mind about the whole 'creation' thing. To him I would say..you haven't met what I've met..be happy you haven't.
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Post by swamprat on Jun 29, 2011 14:27:31 GMT -6
"Not that Swampy didn't realize he might get a reaction from that one"
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Post by bewildered on Jun 29, 2011 15:13:50 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that, swamprat. Thought provoking. That's not necessarily true in all cases. A favorite of researchers, the fruit fly, has been observed changing rapidly under both laboratory and "natural" conditions. Here's an amusing look at the phenomenon in action: mutant fruit flies!There's an interesting connection regarding biological change between an environment free of intentional manipulation and one that is artificially contrived. Biology responds to psychology. We might remember the example of the peppered moths of industrial England from elementary school science class. Some of the moths changed their color in response to rapidly changing conditions: Peppered Moth evolution.Quite fascinating. The short version: pollution killed off the lighter colored lichens on trees that previously offered the lighter-hued moth a camouflage opportunity. Trees were being blackened by soot. Some of the moths changed their coloration scheme to more closely resemble the soot-marred trees. This happened over a relatively short span of time. If the fruit flies and the peppered moths experience rapid biological change in response to an artificially engineered environment, what about us? There's an axiom in quantum physics that relates to Schroedinger's Cat: observation changes everything. We can never know what we are observing was "like before we starting observing it," because the mere act of observation changes what is being observed. I would agree with this from a quantum standpoint: there is a great deal of "empty space" in atoms, for example...or at least, what we perceive as empty space anyway. However, outer space is hardly empty. There's quite a bit of stuff out there in the spaces between. Our own perspective is blind to 99% of reality. We only perceive a few molecules on the tip of a veritable iceberg...and we have an idea of how many molecules and atoms comprise one of those. What about dark matter? Anti matter? We theorize the existence of forces that provide the mechanical backdrop of our model of the universe...but how much do we really understand about those forces? Quantum physics, in the words of the quantum physicists themselves, is weird science. Most will concede that we possess fundamentally flawed notions and perspectives. The proximity of an extra terrestrial intelligence might be a moot point here. We might need only look to our own Moon for evidence, and perhaps even contact. 250,000 or so miles away. I am not a conspiracy theory buff nor adherent; however, there is more than enough evidence out there to convince even a skeptic such as myself that something is amiss in the public's perception of the Moon. We've been fed a suite of lies. Those of us in a position to know something are hiding things from us. Similar evidence exists regarding Mars and the planet's moons. We know about the compelling evidence that Phobos is hollow...apparently, similar evidence exists that Deimos, the other moon of Mars, is as well. Let's add to this mounting pile evidence that our own Moon is hollow. There's an effort by the orthodoxy to dismiss such evidence as the results of "pseudoscience;" just the same, empirical data argues against their dismissal in a more compelling manner. Why is it more compelling? We should know the answer to that one: these same sources who go out of their way to dismiss portions of reality that do not agree with their own cosmology have themselves lied to, and deceived, the public for a very long time. Say what you will about what might or might not exist on our Moon, Mars, or the moons of Mars...the evidence of photographic tampering from NASA and other governmental sources is there and plain to see. The question that arises, even to a skeptic such as myself is thus: why did they do that, and what are they hiding? What they aren't telling us and what they don't show us is what's important here, because it's only too obvious that we have been lied to and deceived for a very, very long time.
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Post by bewildered on Jun 29, 2011 15:20:15 GMT -6
"Not that Swampy didn't realize he might get a reaction from that one" Good material for discussion swampy. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 18:03:41 GMT -6
Yep..enough to stop and think...weigh and choose...wow..conversation! You're right Bewildered.. 'Someone' has gone to such lengths to reconstruct information..what is it that they really don't want us knowing? To me..the point isn't that maybe the government is doctoring information..it's why. I don't think panic works as an adequate reason anymore. The normal reasons are greed and corruption ..maybe they're scooping up all the beach front property on the cheap. If phobos is hollow (and I'm one who believes it is) and possibly a vehicle..then someone came riding along in it or evacuated to it from somewhere near by. But no Mars missions in any future plans they owning up to. Maybe the disappearing probe had a 'stay away' warning we haven't heard about. It is one amazing looking 'rock'
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Post by lois on Jun 29, 2011 21:45:03 GMT -6
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Post by lois on Jun 29, 2011 21:59:17 GMT -6
Did God create the universes? It all depends on what one thinks the word God stands for. If you come face to face with God and believe you will be looking at a form which resembles human beings. No of course he did create the Universes..
The creator.. why should he resemble man kind? If he created everything that is and was.. and yet man has this human image of him.. That is how superior we think we are on this little earth of ares.. The words in the Bible .. God is Love, is one of the better statesments ever made for us..
Lois
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Post by auntym on Jun 29, 2011 22:01:50 GMT -6
i have not read it lois, but i will definitely look for it....
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Post by lois on Jun 29, 2011 22:12:48 GMT -6
I don't know the author.. Does anyone?
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Post by skywalker on Jun 29, 2011 22:22:09 GMT -6
I've heard the name but I have no idea what he has written.
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Post by bewildered on Jun 30, 2011 7:52:48 GMT -6
I'll share a few links that are relevant to the discussion here. Some of you might be familiar with this one: Mars Anomaly Research. This is an interesting website containing a wealth of material pertaining to just the very thing we brought up here - lies, fudging, and disinformation. There's more to the material there than just Mars; Mr. Skipper has also posted a great deal regarding the Moon. This is for the skeptic and believer alike, since the photos speak for themselves. They are culled directly from NASA and other similar sources. I recently discovered the writings of Ingo Swann. I'm not easily impressed with people who make claims of information gained via Psi (or "psychic"), as most are charlatans blowing their own horn. Ingo Swann is another matter altogether. Here's a link to an online book regarding the Moon: Penetration. It's fascinating. I also harbor a rather intense dislike of youtube videos and UFO "documentaries" in general. Charlatans blowing their own horn comes to mind...but I also need to keep an open mind here, because every once in a while something comes along that is worthy of note. When it pertains to the Moon, we are talking about a whole different ball of wax. The Moon is there for us all to see - at least, as we the public are able to see, anyway. The anomalies surrounding our own Moon stands out in stark contrast: strange lights, disc-like objects, towers, geometric artifacts...and the robust evidence that tells us that our Moon, like Phobos, is hollow. Here's an hour-long video about Moon anomalies:
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Post by bewildered on Jun 30, 2011 8:08:59 GMT -6
In any event, I am rather convinced that there are either extra-terrestrial humans on the Moon, or ruins left by these humans. I also consider the same thing regarding Mars.
This brings up a number of things: first, that humanity is in reality exceedingly ancient (certainly beyond our own perception of half a million years); secondly, that we might have either been seeded on this planet by these humans, or are survivors of their civilization(s); and thirdly, the possibility that we might be influenced and/or controlled by currently existing extra-terrestrial humans on our own planet and in our own solar system.
Most of us are familiar with the idea of human biological entities in the employ of extra-terrestrial beings. Then we encounter the concept that perhaps it is all part of a tangled web where some very human-like extra-terrestrials are "in charge" of the entire shebang. What if that is true? What if our ancestors came "from the stars" and humanity is very, very old? Certainly, older than our own presence here on Earth seems to indicate. Evidence on Mars seems to point to war and destruction, and we all know about our race's love affair with war. It's always been with us, or seems to have been anyway.
It is only too obvious that something is on the Moon, and that something stopped the "Moon race" dead in its tracks. We know about the governments of our nations...and we know that they only recognize two things as being crucial to their survival and continued power: money, or superior force. They heed both. Evidence points to them encountering something on the Moon that scared the beejezus out of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 9:13:08 GMT -6
Something had to stop the progress toward 'space' besides the standard explanation of 'budget'. Spending money we don't have hasn't ever stopped our government before.. I think we are under a quarantine. Can't blame anyone for that..I think we'd be a nightmare in space. Not everyone of course, but by and large the human race is greedy and dangerous..we hurt each other on a daily basis. Any other race monitoring ...knows we need containment and maybe every time we look like we're putting a serious foot outside of our own bubble..they extend a warning. It could freak a large percentage of the population out to know we have 'neighbors' who are keeping a lid on us. There are people who would deteriorate under a feeling of perpetual threat. We have this thing...with rebellion. Eventually some faction or several would want to arm up and level the oppressors..'take em out' and end up getting the planet blown to smithereens as a bonus. Lots of examples to choose from..wars that lasted decades here on earth, over religion, over slavery over being told what to do. Maybe that's why it's been suppressed. Just a thought
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Post by skywalker on Jun 30, 2011 18:02:27 GMT -6
So if humans were seeded here by an ancient race of humans, would that mean that humans are really the ETs? And if this technologically advanced race of humans created our universe, as well as ourselves, would that make humans God also? Humans = ET = God? That may explain why some people seem to worship themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 20:12:50 GMT -6
That would make them no better than we are..for all their technology. Here's a thought...maybe they stuck all of their criminals here long ago (sort of like England did Australia) and THEY are our ancestors Explains why they might want to keep an eye on us and make sure we don't get out of the solar system Explains quite a few things actually.
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Post by bewildered on Jun 30, 2011 20:44:00 GMT -6
So if humans were seeded here by an ancient race of humans, would that mean that humans are really the ETs? And if this technologically advanced race of humans created our universe, as well as ourselves, would that make humans God also? Humans = ET = God? That may explain why some people seem to worship themselves. I wouldn't say that they "created the universe." Advanced? Yes, as in hundreds of millions of years advanced, certainly. Also, I wouldn't say that they created us, really - rather that they seeded us here on the planet. So, we are a continuation of the pattern. The Hindu Vedas are thought to be written almost 4,000 years ago, making them amongst the oldest known sacred texts. It has been put forth in the Vedas that humanity undergoes massively long cycles that last a span of hundreds of thousands of years. During these cycles, humanity experiences a number of developmental stages that culminates in astoundingly advanced civilizations...and then plummets into the chaos of degeneration, signaling the end of the cycle and the arrival of a cataclysmic event that ravages the planet and destroys much of humanity. The cycle then begins again. According to the Vedas, this has occurred a number of times. It's worth noting that the Vedas contain fantastic descriptions of flying vehicles and weapons of mass destruction being used in devastating wars. These flying vehicles, called Vimanas, closely resemble what we think of as "UFOs." The weapons of mass destruction closely parallel thermonuclear devices, and their effects mirror what we know of their destructive power and nuclear fallout. Fascinating, indeed, for such an ancient and "primitive" culture to write of such things.
This is nothing but conjecture on my part. The truth is often stranger than fiction, though, and it could very well be that we are the remnants of a much older human civilization that suffered cataclysmic decline. It could be that we were seeded here as an effort to preserve what was left of "local humanity" in the wake of a devastating and final war. In other words, humanity here in our solar system. Anything is possible, though not everything is. There could have been survivors, enclaves who persisted after the desolation of planets such as Mars, perhaps Venus, and whatever planetary body that existed between Jupiter and Mars. The time frame in question could be millions of Earth years...perhaps even billions. What would time be to those who were not bound by it? Their craft and technology would be far, far beyond our understanding. It would border upon the supernatural from our point of view, for they would regularly violate the laws of the universe as we understand them. These humans might be thought of as Watchers. To us, they might seem like the sons of God. Amongst the enclaves who survived, some might have interfered in our development, seeing what they could do to alter our emergence. Others might maintain their distance, observing us from afar. Most might be unified in their desire to prevent another holocaust...and yet a few might want that more than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 0:44:44 GMT -6
I was going to write a novel once..never quite got to it..my thought was that the Earth is actually the Ark. The diversity of human and animal on the planet explained by their ancestors being 'seeded' here..two by two as it were..but when you think about it..from a scientific standpoint...two...is not even close to an adequate gene pool. Adam and Eve...can't work from a scientists perspective. Blood types..races..there had to be some 'help' to achieve the human stew we now have. I still think penal planet has merit ;D So many possibilities...so few clues I think you're right Bewildered in that it's very very old.
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Post by god on Jul 1, 2011 10:15:59 GMT -6
Something had to stop the progress toward 'space' besides the standard explanation of 'budget'. Spending money we don't have hasn't ever stopped our government before.. I think we are under a quarantine. Can't blame anyone for that..I think we'd be a nightmare in space. Not everyone of course, but by and large the human race is greedy and dangerous..we hurt each other on a daily basis. Any other race monitoring ...knows we need containment and maybe every time we look like we're putting a serious foot outside of our own bubble..they extend a warning. It could freak a large percentage of the population out to know we have 'neighbors' who are keeping a lid on us. There are people who would deteriorate under a feeling of perpetual threat. We have this thing...with rebellion. Eventually some faction or several would want to arm up and level the oppressors..'take em out' and end up getting the planet blown to smithereens as a bonus. Lots of examples to choose from..wars that lasted decades here on earth, over religion, over slavery over being told what to do. Maybe that's why it's been suppressed. Just a thought Here is another thought Jo; humanity may be “dangerous” on this planet, but largely due to the fact that some humans have slightly more control over available energy than others and use it to impose their ideas over other less “fortunate’ ones that have less control over this available energy. However, humanity can barely get two or three “dudes” (as Skywalker says) out of the home planet and just a few miles away from the gravitational influence of earth and bring them back home “safely’….and not always. To become a “danger” for this planetary system (let alone, the galaxy) humanity would need to be able to master the use of unfathomable (for now and quite a long “time” yet) amounts of energy to get more than two dudes out there. For now, as you well implied, humanity will continue to spend money they don’t have on stuff they don’t need to impress neighbors they don’t like…. GOD
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 15:13:41 GMT -6
That's a good point..we're a long ways from being able to freely invade space.
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Post by paulette on Jul 1, 2011 22:56:07 GMT -6
Earth - a game preserve.
I gotta say - I watched the video -all one hour of largely blurry and repetitive photos. There were interesting points made but it seemed to take forever to make them. I often have wondered about why no stars (they would be so beautiful in moon shots). I have seen other articles/videos about the photo cross hatching being missing or in some cases eclipsed by a close-by object. There's no doubt that photos were cooked IMO.
Anyone notice that the vector symbol is the same as the TV show V, in which the aliens come visit and seem sooooooooooo nice. At first.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 1:00:13 GMT -6
Half the believing world wants to believe in friendly 'good guy' aliens the other half are convinced we're going to be invaded or already have been. Why is it so hard to think they are just observing or on occasion having a bit of fun with the natives at our expense. One thing the human race has in abundance is ego. No one wants to think they're nothing more than an experiment, or significantly beneath their notice other than as a field project. We think we're pretty darned smart. We went to college..we have degrees..we made it to the moon so naturally the rest of the universe should see us as equals and brilliant enough to contribute. The very hardest lesson in life is to learn to shed ego and be humble...then we start to progress. I think we'll have a lot to think about in the coming months
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Post by Steve on Jul 2, 2011 11:29:25 GMT -6
That is, if we go in search of such a being — as both theists and atheists claim to be doing — we encounter a problem that I call Shermer's last law: any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God.
My gambit (ET= ID = God) arises from an integration of evolutionary theory, intelligent design creationism, and the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) program, and can be derived from the following observations and deductions.
Observation 1: Biological evolution is glacially slow compared to technological evolution.
Observation 2: The cosmos is very big and space is very empty, so the probability of making contact with an ETI is very remote.
Much of this may depend on the origins and formations of your beliefs. If you live in a paradigm that thinks we are arrogantly and selfishly the only life in the universe, such philosophy would automatically think anything else that is distinguishably not like them, would have to be 'a god'.
If you accept the notion that the Universe is quite possibly filled with life, and a large portion is sentient -self aware life too - and the only limitation are the vast distances - Human arrogance again because perhaps we lack the ability at the moment to initiate contact - is ignoring the possibility another intelligence might be sufficiently more advanced to come to us instead (see above the statement in 'observation 2').
In reference to observation 1, Biological evolution used to be glacially slow, this is until it linked up recently with technological evolution.
Those of a conservative religious nature are rather trapped, anything not like them must be a god. And because they may mistakenly assume it must be 'a god', based on their own notions of what God must be like - they will automatically reject it just as quickly. They are so quick and way too premature in thinking to make that connection, and reject just as quickly.
They also make a dangerous assumption, because they must be more 'intelligent' - demonstrated in a technological way usually - they must be morally more advanced too. Not necessarily. Morally it may come down to very rudimentary values in regard to the promotion of continued existence of life in whatever form it may take. And in how and in what way whether such life to some degree must compete with other life.
As we ponder this more, some of us may become more sophisticated over time with discoveries that there maybe intelligent life, much more advanced, and just as much as mortal as we are too. The discovery of extraterrestrial life would also challenge us to ponder what our notion of what mortal & perhaps immortal is. Time, the vast distances across space, any inter-idimensional travel perhaps to facilitate bridging such distances - will all challenge such concepts.
Those religious seeing the Universe only in black and white terms will be forced reluctantly incorporate levels of intelligent more advanced - 'god gradients'?
Ultimately in some form or another, we all may need emotionally some kind of notion of a greater power spiritually that supersedes everything, looks over everyone in whatever form such life regards itself. Is this notion only a human one?
If we have a notion of a God that is limitless, eventually learning of the existence of extraterrestrial life should not diminish that notion of a all powerful and still very intimate God. It only reminds us once again that our own human perceptions are limited - but hopefully still expanding in consciousness too.
Our present human view of the Universe still is from the context of viewing our parents from a baby crib. It is the only world we would know, dependent of them for everything.
As we grow hopefully, we may learn we have other brothers and sisters too of similar origin to ours, and as we become more sophisticated socially after leaving the crib, we still know in the back of our minds - now filled with new and wondrous facts - our parents sort of speak we will remind ourselves will still be uniquely ours.
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 14:45:29 GMT -6
I think you're right Steve..it has everything to do with how we believe. To some..combining God and aliens is an insult..I feel that way because of what I encountered. That is not the God I believe in..but..to someone else..they may need a 'living' God enough to make that leap. We probably do have brothers and sisters throughout the universe. I hope they are good and kind and that we evolve to match that. I still hold a childish resentment against what I encountered and I know it shows and spills over into my belief structure. Maybe some day I'll mature to the point that I don't want to fetch em a poke in the nose (if they had one). I KNOW I have holes in my psyche.
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Post by skywalker on Jul 2, 2011 20:50:34 GMT -6
I believe it is extremely possible (and probable) that at one time Mars was very similar to the way the Earth is now. We know that it was once covered with water and that it had an atmosphere. Since Mars is smaller than the Earth and further from the sun it would have cooled quicker, making it capable of supporting life much earlier than the Earth was. Therefor it is possible that both life and humans could have evolved on Mars long before they evolved on Earth.
So let's assume that humans did evolve on Mars, and let's say that they had to leave the planet because it was finally becoming inhabitable. The oceans were drying up, the atmosphere was drifting away...they could not stay any longer.
Where did they go after that? They didn't come to the Earth at that time because the fossil record shows that humans only evolved within the past couple million years and Mars has probably been uninhabitable for hundreds of millions of years, if not longer. Unless NASA and the government have been lying to us about exactly what the environmental conditions on Mars really are.
I have seen photos taken by the Mars rovers that show clouds drifting through the sky, so we know that Mars has moisture and they have wind, which means there must be an atmosphere up there still. Perhaps Mars is still capable of supporting complex life-forms even today.
The question that I have is that if humans on Earth were "seeded" here by a race of "alien" humans why does the fossil record show that a slow evolution of humanoid creatures took place over several million years that finally culminated in the emergence of modern man?
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Post by skywalker on Jul 2, 2011 21:01:24 GMT -6
Here is another thought Jo; humanity may be “dangerous” on this planet, but largely due to the fact that some humans have slightly more control over available energy than others and use it to impose their ideas over other less “fortunate’ ones that have less control over this available energy. However, humanity can barely get two or three “dudes” (as Skywalker says) out of the home planet and just a few miles away from the gravitational influence of earth and bring them back home “safely’….and not always. To become a “danger” for this planetary system (let alone, the galaxy) humanity would need to be able to master the use of unfathomable (for now and quite a long “time” yet) amounts of energy to get more than two dudes out there. For now, as you well implied, humanity will continue to spend money they don’t have on stuff they don’t need to impress neighbors they don’t like…. GOD I agree, dude. There are too many areas here on Earth that still need to be conquered before people would be able to even think about conquering space. If we were ever to have a New World Order, or some type of one world government, where the entire planet were controlled by a small group of people then they might be able to invest the time and resources necessary to invade space. They would need a lot more than two or three dudes to do it though. In order to conquer an alien race we would have to be able to send out millions of dudes. Unless our technology were so advanced that a single dude with a supremely powerful weapon could conquer a planet single-handedly. Would that mean that that one dude would become a god to the alien-dudes on the conquered planet? Is that where our idea of God came from?
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Post by bewildered on Jul 2, 2011 23:29:25 GMT -6
I believe it is extremely possible (and probable) that at one time Mars was very similar to the way the Earth is now. We know that it was once covered with water and that it had an atmosphere. Since Mars is smaller than the Earth and further from the sun it would have cooled quicker, making it capable of supporting life much earlier than the Earth was. Therefor it is possible that both life and humans could have evolved on Mars long before they evolved on Earth. So let's assume that humans did evolve on Mars, and let's say that they had to leave the planet because it was finally becoming inhabitable. The oceans were drying up, the atmosphere was drifting away...they could not stay any longer. Where did they go after that? They didn't come to the Earth at that time because the fossil record shows that humans only evolved within the past couple million years and Mars has probably been uninhabitable for hundreds of millions of years, if not longer. Unless NASA and the government have been lying to us about exactly what the environmental conditions on Mars really are. I have seen photos taken by the Mars rovers that show clouds drifting through the sky, so we know that Mars has moisture and they have wind, which means there must be an atmosphere up there still. Perhaps Mars is still capable of supporting complex life-forms even today. The question that I have is that if humans on Earth were "seeded" here by a race of "alien" humans why does the fossil record show that a slow evolution of humanoid creatures took place over several million years that finally culminated in the emergence of modern man? The fossil record isn't that clear nor simple, sky. If only it was. There has never been any clear indicator of a gradual evolution into modern humanity found anywhere. Modern humans seemed to simply appear out of "nowhere," in Africa. There is also the question of anomalies in the fossil record - anomalies that simply cannot be ignored. I have seen some rather creative pooh-pahing going on by the orthodoxy in regards to evidence that humanity... our humanity...is in actuality many millions of years old. It is dismissed as impossible. Forget evidence that clearly shows it to be very possible. Humanity in our present and recognizable form, according to the orthodox version of the record, is a very recent development: recognized only in the past 200,000 years. That includes some very minor overlap with Neanderthals, who according to the orthodox version, disappeared about that length of time ago. The truth is not that simple, I suspect. First: humanity is not unique in the universe. That is, we just didn't occur here and only here...not even the ancients who might have populated Mars and other planets and moons in our solar system. They were not the "first." I suspect that we were "planted" here by travelers. There is evidence that our star did not originate in this galaxy. At some point in the past, two galaxies collided...and one absorbed the other; thus the two became one. Our star might have popped in at that time. This has actually been observed by scientists in action, and in fact is happening right now. The Milky Way is slowly absorbing a much smaller, orbiting galaxy. It's rather mind-blowing when you think about it. The universe is a strange and mysterious place. Humanity might have "originated" in the vicinity of Orion... billions of our Earth years ago. In case you haven't noticed by now, there is a mountain of evidence that speaks against the version of history (and pre-history) that the orthodox establishment drills into our heads. The example of the Moon is just one thing for you to look at in this vein. What else have they lied about? Human footprints found next to dinosaur footprints, made at the same point in time? Pottery, tools, and modern human bones found in 250 million year old substrata? 250,000,000 vs. 200,000. Big difference. "Forbidden archaeology" is the term applied to evidence found by those who stick to their guns and insist on what they find, where they find it...is what they found. Funny how that works. The orthodoxy dismisses out of hand whatever does not fit their paradigm. The present paradigm is thus: Homo Sapiens (us) somehow appeared 200,000 years ago in Africa. Somehow we gradually evolved into what we are despite the fact that nothing of the sort has been found, at all. Ever. Our closest relative, Neanderthals, weren't actually that close to us at all. They were anatomically very different from us...different enough to have their own genome. Funny, ain't it? Why do people insist on believing in fairy tales, when the evidence paints a completely different picture? We appeared literally out of nowhere on this planet.
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Post by bewildered on Jul 2, 2011 23:43:44 GMT -6
As an aside, I should add that Neanderthals were not our "ancestors." Mapping their genome has conclusively proved that. Homo Erectus is considered to be the "ancestor" of both Neanderthals and modern humanity. This was arrived at because the orthodoxy was looking for "missing links" in human evolution. No mapping of Erectus' genome can be done, due to the ancient and deteriorated state of their fossilized bones. Too bad, I would be interested in seeing the results of that.
The holes riddle the Orthodox Paradigm...huge gaps of time and unexplained absences. There is no "stepping stone" between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens. The difference is vast.
EDIT - We should identify what is conjecture here, and what isn't. Fudging of Moon facts and photographs is factual. Issues regarding the fossil record, Neanderthals, etc, are factual. Humanity's possible origins elsewhere is conjecture on my part. The hardest part about all of this is we really don't know what is disinformation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 10:04:32 GMT -6
Bewildered... I totally agree that our government has altered a lot of things and covered up more..but while we may see it that way way..is there supporting evidence to call it 'factual' or just enough people who are determined it is? I'm sure they would say (if they ever got around to owning up to it) that they had good reason for it..and to me that indicates that they don't want the rest of the world knowing what's up there. High on the list would be they want it..or there's some threat. I get so tired of hearing 'he said that she said's' when it comes to UFO's. People willing to share information that they say came from someone who worked for area 51 or swearing they heard it from someone who knew someone who saw the bodies. The farmer in Brazil who doesn't speak a word of English but accounts how he had sex with the beautiful blonde alien Nordic. Of course he's 90 and looks like a withered troll but she jumped his bones anyway to have his perfect children...or so the translation went according to the 'UFO' investigator who interviewed him who doesn't speak Brazillian. Now I know you Bewildered and you require a certain amount of facts on your plate..so delight me and tell me how you decided about the lunar mismanagement..this subject I know has meat on its bones..and besides..I actually like threads that have conversation LOL .
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