pigswillfly
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Post by pigswillfly on Nov 5, 2011 17:27:31 GMT -6
If there is one thing I've learnt through my UFO experience it's that all is not what it seems. The status quo that we accept as reality is a facade hiding who knows what. I have no doubt that Mufon is manipulated, as is the whole field of ufology, it's all a distraction. Anything is possible, as you say. Hello there Swampy.
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 6, 2011 1:30:26 GMT -6
Seems I recall that Mo and jjflash are from Florida. Hmmm, just saying. Mind you, it's no surprise there was a stuff up if Gort was involved. I think pigswillfly nailed it. A lot of times the simplest answer is the correct one. It points to jjflash and his delusional state. It was UFOmania people who have sour grapes with MUFON, Bigelow. The admin there is like an obedient pet. The truth is an admin can't keep track of a members wearabouts unless you like live with them.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 6, 2011 9:11:15 GMT -6
The only way anybody could prove who the trespassers really were would be to look at the surveillance tape the witness has and identify them. I seriously doubt that anybody is going to go through the trouble of doing that because nobody has anything to gain from it. The witness doesn't want to prosecute the people, MUFON apparently isn't interested in knowing who they were, Ufomania considers it to be "water under the bridge"...that's pretty much the end of it. Anything else is just speculation, and we can speculate till the cows come home but it isn't going to change anything.
Even if the identities of the two people were discovered, what then? They might be exposed as trespassers and possible liars but would that really make any difference to anybody?
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pigswillfly
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Post by pigswillfly on Nov 6, 2011 17:37:30 GMT -6
No, just par for the course. ps. ufo4peace, just for the record I don't think it was jj. He would only get involved with the consent of the Mufon fi and the witnesses, unlawful behaviour is not one of jj's faults that I'm aware of. jmo.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 6, 2011 18:40:31 GMT -6
As much as I hate to admit it, I agree. I honestly don't think that JJ would go sneaking around on private property and breaking the law. I also don't know why the heck I am defending him when he has caused me nothing but grief...temporary insanity I suppose. If anybody really is intent on finding out who the two trespassers were they will need to keep looking. I'm not really interested myself. There are a lot of idiots in the world who do stupid things and what those two did was minor by comparison.
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pigswillfly
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Post by pigswillfly on Nov 6, 2011 23:05:35 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 23:41:10 GMT -6
Man... If I had reported a major sighting/abduction event to MUFON (which I wouldn't do ANYWAY...) and some clowns were sneaking around in my yard against my wishes, I would have shot at them... but that's me. ~shrug~
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 7, 2011 3:21:22 GMT -6
Even if the identities of the two people were discovered, what then? They might be exposed as trespassers and possible liars but would that really make any difference to anybody? It would be interesting to know who all is showing up at these cases. UFO Enthusiast or UFO Enthusiast + G-men. How the info was compromised by MUFON. Do some UFO enthusiast have ulterior motives....
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 7, 2011 3:25:15 GMT -6
Man... If I had reported a major sighting/abduction event to MUFON (which I wouldn't do ANYWAY...) and some clowns were sneaking around in my yard against my wishes, I would have shot at them... but that's me. ~shrug~ I think there are laws against that depending on the state. It has to be in self defense.
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 7, 2011 3:38:05 GMT -6
No, just par for the course. ps. ufo4peace, just for the record I don't think it was jj. He would only get involved with the consent of the Mufon fi and the witnesses, unlawful behaviour is not one of jj's faults that I'm aware of. jmo. They probably suspect me of being an "Agent Provocateur." ET's are deception/disinformation.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 7, 2011 7:42:57 GMT -6
It would be interesting to know who all is showing up at these cases. UFO Enthusiast or UFO Enthusiast + G-men. How the info was compromised by MUFON. Do some UFO enthusiast have ulterior motives.... Bigelow's people commonly show up at STAR team cases before the STAR team does...and many people suspect him of being a front man for the Feds. I suppose that would qualify them as G-men. I haven't heard of many ordinary civilians showing up at MUFON cases but it doesn't surprise me that they would. Just about anybody can access their CMS now. MUFON may as well just broadcast all of the witness' personal info all over the internet...they would probably have fewer people show up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 10:32:54 GMT -6
I don't think JJ has the 'ambition' to be a particularly good investigator. He might be the one standing there tying to goad someone else into doing it while staying safely on his side of the fence. Like the paparazzi who chase stars through the world to get pictures someone else is paying thousands for..JJ might be the one paying for the pictures but not doing the chasing. ;D Personally...I think both organizations go overboard..and act like crazed groupies over what little scraps there are to find. Eventually..because of stuff like this no one is going to talk to them because they present themselves in this kind of light. It was probably just some alien faction trying to get them to do each other in and having a lot of fun
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Post by Steve on Nov 7, 2011 14:14:58 GMT -6
In mufon there were many political dynamics in play in many of their cases - whether appropriate or not.
In any case, depending on it's location, many players could potentially become involved. Depending if the star team is assigned or not, and if there are local competing conflicting State mufon investigators in the same organization that jump in.
Some state Mufon chapters are non existent, and some chapters have regional coverage only. This due to many reasons, some states are better run and/or have the personnel than other states, or in many cases, state directors have resigned.
There is a internal struggle between state and HQ in Denver. Basically it is tension between some wishing central control everywhere vs. local state control. Some states have avoided and shunned star teams, in other cases, the star team has operated covertly without the state chapters even aware until it leaks out later as it always does. This causes anger and mistrust everywhere in their ranks. Some cases in Oklahoma, Texas, Florida, Colorado, Arizona to name a few.
In some high profile cases, some investigators within the same organization were secretly working against each other. Denver HQ had their people, the local state had theirs resenting the local intrusions and each wanting to have their control in the media limelight. Mistrust branches out, questions arise such as is Bigelow out for himself, or does he own the BOD? Cases go missing, despite what Journal articles may state to the contrary. The truth but never the whole truth by a long shot. Many amazing examples of this as evidence exist around the country.
Then in many cases, Bigelows people will show up first according to witnesses. Witnesses are told to not cooperate with anyone else. Each tries to corner the information and be exclusive. Star teams boast being on site within 48 hours. Try 2 weeks in some cases I know directly of. How then could Bigelows people potentially not show up first?
The witnesses are not dummies to this, and often shut down the whole program. I have seen this occur several times with other investigators - the names unmentioned here to protect the innocent or guilty. Other cases Mufon members & local investigators will show up rubbernecking, even once or twice forming a crowd situation. Too many people. Trespassing, loitering, with already uncomfortable witnesses having unnecessary attention drawn upon themselves. Remember the witnesses? That shuts down things too.
The local investigators who know the area best resent being tossed only 'light in the sky' cases. This drives them crazy. Then as in this Florida case, some claiming to be from UFOmania or another website (such as OMF - Open Minds Forum) have shown up to get a piece of the action. Could OMF been involved, and used UFOmania as a cover lie? Who knows or cares. All these groups vary in objectivity and consideration for the witness. Some are debunking, others are so sure before they investigate anything, they are merely looking for facts to support their blatant bias. They basically already see UFO's in their soup!
You know, the situation is such the current players make the Condon Report and Blue Book look fantastic in comparison. That is not necessarily good. They all have no one to blame but themselves.
Remember the scenes early on in 'Die hard'? The police, their lieutenants, and then the FBI taking over and it all crashing down ("gee, I guess they are going to need some more FBI guys" ;D ) . A perfect analogy. Each one thinking they are the single hero in the building that will save the day. It is a recipe for disaster. The more dramatic the initial reports of a case are, the crazier the players are and jump in anyway. The result is usually empty, and more Internet myths are born.
I have not even mentioned any government people involved yet - who would want to jump in at that point? Better things to be spending their time with? Many investigators want to make a name for themselves only ( I talked to one just like that the other day who freely admitted that unfortunately - who wanted to hand a case over because it was too overwhelming - I politely refused - logistically a bridge too far).
There are ways still to do it right, if someone wished to ever conduct some serious training to everyone without excluding others. You learn most of the best people now work independently and quietly.
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 15:15:15 GMT -6
Steve Said: You mean people like you?
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Post by skywalker on Nov 7, 2011 16:31:13 GMT -6
I think that Steve made a lot of good points. There are a lot of dynamics going on in MUFON and many other organizations that only create distractions and discord and do nothing whatsoever to help ufology. This incident in Miami is just one of many examples of how screwed up things have become lately. It has gotten to be way too complicated. The more people there are involved in something the greater the chance somebody is going to screw something up. They need to get back to the basics and remember what investigating UFOs is supposed to be about--Investigating the UFOs.
This is why I also think that many of the best investigators are independents. Investigative organizations have a tendency to put too much emphasis on the organization and not as much on the investigation. They come up with all of these rules and regulations that have to be followed, they start jealously guarding their secrets, then the people spend all of their time trying to rise up through the ranks so they can have more power and influence over the organization. It becomes more about politics rather than investigating.
Hopefully people will learn from the MUFON fiasco and not repeat those same mistakes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 17:39:48 GMT -6
The best investigators ARE independent. Seems like every time some organization changes 'leadership' there is this big shake down or shake up and the new regime flexes it's muscles. To me..it's a little like my shying away from churches (organized religion) I would much prefer chatting with God on my own without a go between
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Post by lois on Nov 7, 2011 21:40:06 GMT -6
sky what was that post back on Mufon that time where some one had mufon investigator on his car or truck and it was unlawful . something like that. Do you remember it?
Or does any one else?
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Post by skywalker on Nov 7, 2011 21:59:15 GMT -6
I remember something like that. I think it was a car that said "UFO investigator" or something like that and I think it belonged to one of the State Directors and somebody used it without permission...or something like that. I think I might even have a photo of the car somewhere on my computer. Let me see if I can find it.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 7, 2011 22:41:51 GMT -6
I think this is one of the cars they were talking about. It belonged to some privately funded group that operated on the west coast. I believe this one here was in San Francisco. At least I think this is the car they were talking about. I could be wrong though. I do remember the thread on the old forum, I'm just not sure exactly what it was all about.
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pigswillfly
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Post by pigswillfly on Nov 7, 2011 23:55:48 GMT -6
Alas, Mufon is still a mess.
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 8, 2011 3:57:38 GMT -6
Good info by Steve. A lot of what you see seems to be a product of Ufology itself. About the case the description of a metallic sphere with no seams reminds me of a type of UFO Ted Phillips describes in landing cases that could be considered probes. The objects fall into three general groups: 1. Small Hemispherical/Spherical Objects, from 4 feet to 12 feet in diameter, 4 ft to 5f ft thick, [glow=red,2,300]glowing[/glow] brightly at night & showing a metallic surface in daylight. They rarely touch the ground but remain stationary 1 feet to 5 feet above ground surface. External details, such as “vents” or “extensions” are often reported on the base of such objects. They are reported as silent, whistling, humming, or rumbling. These objects generally leave behind 4 feet to 12 feet circular areas which are depressed, burnt or dehydrated. Considerable tree damage is usually found in the immediate area. Animal & human reaction is often reported. Source: Ted Phillips (CUFOS) www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/dir.htmlPhotos of the metallic spheres in the 1993 Raúl Domínguez López case can be seen here: elorigen-estrellaanamaria.blogspot.com/2011/03/enigmas-ovnis-u-objetos-anomalos.htmlThese spheres were observed going up inside the hat-shaped disc. A red ball or sphere docks with a rather large craft at the 8:50 mark. Witnesses: Danny Gordon, Roger Hall. Wytheville, Virginia.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 8, 2011 13:19:15 GMT -6
Alas, Mufon is still a mess. Is, was and always will be...
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Post by skywalker on Nov 8, 2011 22:37:00 GMT -6
The best investigators ARE independent. Seems like every time some organization changes 'leadership' there is this big shake down or shake up and the new regime flexes it's muscles. To me..it's a little like my shying away from churches (organized religion) I would much prefer chatting with God on my own without a go between I can't argue with that. I don't need somebody telling me what I can and can't do or what I should and should not believe. Religion is a person's individual beliefs. Organized religion is somebody else telling people what to believe.
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 10, 2011 14:12:24 GMT -6
I don't think JJ has the 'ambition' to be a particularly good investigator. I noticed the admin there (Stiver) deleted all my threads including this topic and moved some of them to a dedicated UFO4peace thread. As for JJflash he's pretty much a spin doctor and a bit of a loon IMO. Let's take the Miami case for example.... Here's JJ's logic: The case included military or intelligence implications, as Beall reported the family had ties to law enforcement and military service. Actually, to an extent that Beall stated were quite significant. Additionally, their residence was near a major military facility.That's association fallacy. You're seeing military conspiracy because that's what you want to see. According to Beall, the couple apparently had other uninvited visitors as well. It has been speculated by MUFON personnel that these visiting parties may have been from a government agency or may somehow have been related to ufology entrepreneur Robert Bigelow. Current and former MUFON personnel have now made public statements in which they proclaim direct government interference in the investigation.That's pretty much hearsay or unsubstantiated. Now proving G-men actually visited the property or having some people go on record would be a good story. In the Blogosphere you read a lot of garbage because it's just some person trying to sell their point of view and they don't have to back up anything. Journalism has gotten that way too which is kind of sad but I guess that's just the sign of our times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 14:33:02 GMT -6
This is why I am glad I moved myself over to this forum.
Here, the Admin encourage free speech in all its glory.
Over there, if your opinions don't agree with the Admin, they red flag you and threaten you.
Skywalker's forum is far superior, and that is why more people are feeling comfortable enough to post their stories over here. That is why that other forum is like a ghost town compared to this one. ~nods~
If only the Admin over there were able to understand that... but I don't think they are capable of understanding that... they're too wrapped up in trying to impose their own beliefs on everyone else- well at least one of them is... *ahem* JJ... *cough*
~hugz and smoochiez everyone~
ufo4peace... it seems to me they are trying to do to you what they tried to do to "David" last year. They are dragging you out to the town square for a public humiliation and/or hanging because they don't like you personally. This is a personal attack and they are trying to intimidate you. Extremely childish behavior in my opinion. Adults should not be behaving this way- but alas... some of us adults are nothing more than children on the inside...
A note to the Admin of that other forum:
Good job you guys! Keep antagonizing your members, because every time you do it we gain the refugees of your forum over here as members. Keep up the good work!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 15:37:04 GMT -6
I just went over there and read the comments made. What a bunch of children... lol... I can't believe the things I am reading over there... wow! So let me get this straight from THEIR perspective: If a member posts topics that he finds interesting and would like to begin a conversation about the articles or photographs or videos he finds, the administrators believe they are "off topic" and they need to all be lumped together in one place... wow... they never did that to Auntym when she was making posts over there... did they Aunty?? OK... so one of the things Captain Flash got on my case about while I was an active member of there was the fact that I was citing an article from Wikipedia and he told me that that was not a credible source... Now Stiver is getting on ufo4peace's case because he is not writing his own articles like her beloved JJ. I guess it's wrong for anyone to discuss an article written by a non-member... So... (stifling a chuckle as best I can...) It's OK for the other members to quote from articles that the Admin agree with, but it's NOT OK for someone they don't like to do it... wow... lmao! Why don't they just turn the forum into a personal JJ blog? I think that is their intent. It is an entire forum dedicated to the brilliance of Captain Flash, and anyone who disagrees with him is banned... lol... And one member has the gall to accuse ufo4peace of being a desperate "attention seeker"... So what does that make JJ? rotflol!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 15:44:23 GMT -6
Perhaps they should change the name of their forum to "JJ-mania"...
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by lois on Nov 10, 2011 23:52:18 GMT -6
Good info by Steve. A lot of what you see seems to be a product of Ufology itself. About the case the description of a metallic sphere with no seams reminds me of a type of UFO Ted Phillips describes in landing cases that could be considered probes. The objects fall into three general groups: 1. Small Hemispherical/Spherical Objects, from 4 feet to 12 feet in diameter, 4 ft to 5f ft thick, [glow=red,2,300]glowing[/glow] brightly at night & showing a metallic surface in daylight. They rarely touch the ground but remain stationary 1 feet to 5 feet above ground surface. External details, such as “vents” or “extensions” are often reported on the base of such objects. They are reported as silent, whistling, humming, or rumbling. These objects generally leave behind 4 feet to 12 feet circular areas which are depressed, burnt or dehydrated. Considerable tree damage is usually found in the immediate area. Animal & human reaction is often reported. Source: Ted Phillips (CUFOS) www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/dir.htmlPhotos of the metallic spheres in the 1993 Raúl Domínguez López case can be seen here: elorigen-estrellaanamaria.blogspot.com/2011/03/enigmas-ovnis-u-objetos-anomalos.htmlThese spheres were observed going up inside the hat-shaped disc. A red ball or sphere docks with a rather large craft at the 8:50 mark. Witnesses: Danny Gordon, Roger Hall. Wytheville, Virginia. ufo4peace. thanks for posting Danny's story as I cannot put my tapes on here.. I remember how they had the camera and they did not think to pick it up and take a photo.. He did have film missing .. He was harassed for sure. When I seen the video posted, I thought I was going to see Danny today, but it is one of my old tapes replayed here. I often wonder where these witnesses are today and what they may be doing in ufo research. Any one stays with the subject once a witness..
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Post by Steve on Nov 11, 2011 0:26:39 GMT -6
I think this is one of the cars they were talking about. It belonged to some privately funded group that operated on the west coast. I believe this one here was in San Francisco. At least I think this is the car they were talking about. I could be wrong though. I do remember the thread on the old forum, I'm just not sure exactly what it was all about. This guy was part of the various things I covered on my beat when I was the local Mufon Chief investigator then. Keeping tabs on this guy so someone didn't get embarrassed. A privately funded group? Not. Try just a nut who lives in Dublin, California. He briefly crept into UFO mania for a brief time. Was incensed no one noticed him. Scary really. Some people keep their Christmas lights up all year round, this guy it's Halloween. He just wishes to advertise the same way Harry and his truck announcing the end of the world. Part of his gimmick is to drive and take pictures of his car in various places around the SF Bay Area and posts of facebook. Does Face book really have a serious purpose? Internet bubblegum on the sole of your feet. I think he wants to make the public believe their is some kind of exo-politics ghost buster thing going on. His car license registration I think may have expired here too (just kidding). You think a UFO witness would appreciate this car parked in front of their home for the neighbors to see? That should get witnesses to clam up for sure. See my point? This is what UFOlogy has become sadly. More egos. Dr. Hynek save us. Steve
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Post by Steve on Nov 11, 2011 3:01:53 GMT -6
Good info by Steve. A lot of what you see seems to be a product of Ufology itself. About the case the description of a metallic sphere with no seams reminds me of a type of UFO Ted Phillips describes in landing cases that could be considered probes. The objects fall into three general groups: 1. Small Hemispherical/Spherical Objects, from 4 feet to 12 feet in diameter, 4 ft to 5f ft thick, [glow=red,2,300]glowing[/glow] brightly at night & showing a metallic surface in daylight. They rarely touch the ground but remain stationary 1 feet to 5 feet above ground surface. External details, such as “vents” or “extensions” are often reported on the base of such objects. They are reported as silent, whistling, humming, or rumbling. These objects generally leave behind 4 feet to 12 feet circular areas which are depressed, burnt or dehydrated. Considerable tree damage is usually found in the immediate area. Animal & human reaction is often reported. Source: Ted Phillips (CUFOS) www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/dir.htmlPhotos of the metallic spheres in the 1993 Raúl Domínguez López case can be seen here: elorigen-estrellaanamaria.blogspot.com/2011/03/enigmas-ovnis-u-objetos-anomalos.htmlThese spheres were observed going up inside the hat-shaped disc. A red ball or sphere docks with a rather large craft at the 8:50 mark. Witnesses: Danny Gordon, Roger Hall. Wytheville, Virginia. Thank you UFO4Peace. I have had copies of all the Homestead case photos for some time. As you remark, the Homestead Florida photos are reminiscent of some of Ted Phillip's small orb like lights his surveillance cameras have recorded in the secret area he and his team has been watching for some time in Missouri. I decided to look hard at the Homestead, Florida photos again, since it has been made an issue here. It occurred to me - could a hoax may have been perpetrated here? See the photo above taken through the large plate glass window, probably a glass sliding door. See the diamond shaped orb - the center of this whole fuss? Notice the red dot to the upper right of the diamond orb? A red laser pointer (?) positioned behind the indoors camera with the light source (Laser pen) angled off to the right in the darkened part of room. The diamond 'UFO' made so by the reflection off of double pane glass in the foreground. The light refracting between the layers of glass causing the diamond shape. The angles for this would be about right for that. It is possible Mufon and UFOmania (or whoever trespassed) maybe the victim of an elaborate hoax. If true, then the witness might be just as guilty too? Some physical evidence was supposedly found near the tree. If the photos were staged - was the physical trace evidence arranged too? The case report stated nothing was found of significance from the lab tests fits this theory. Also, as cases go, this Mufon case is not really that interesting a case to begin with. I have a much more interesting orb case. Iowa - 1997. This is not a silly orb dust on camera case. This orb reportedly emitted a form of radiation that effected the witnesses tree foliage. This witness noticed on his backyard surveillance camera (he is an engineer who loves gadgets) while working on his computer, a green orb that descended and began moving about his back yard (see diagram). He noticed this orb passed through the branches of his yards tree. As it passed through the tree branches, it became translucent - with only a center area emitting a light - like a diamond center. Once passed, the object became solid in appearance again. The witness was on his early cell phone (1997) talking with his wife as events were happening, the witness grabbed his loaded pistol..... here is what the witness describes next... "We Lived in the middle of a small 30K population town in Iowa, right along the Mississippi River in 1997.
The Week before, I had watched a floating orb fly into my back yard on our video monitor. It shook me, so I stepped out the back door on the side of my house and watched this orb, heading one way across the yard, it Stopped mid-flight, as if it noticed I was standing there and it completed a hard 90 degree turn and head right for me.
I jumped back into my house and watched it head for me through the sliding glass doors that led to my patio. On my patio, we had approx 2 cords of fire wood stacked on our concrete patio for our fireplace. It was a wall of firewood that was stacked in a interlocking fashion. The wall was 5.5' wide 15' long, and 5' high, and neatly stacked on my patio. This is what I was hiding behind while watching the orb out in my back yard. The orb was about 1 to 1.5 ' in diameter and made no noise. Its flight was not floating like a balloon, but a directionally controlled orb. Anyway, it came to the firewood wall and actually blew through it knocking the entire center section down and spread it all over my patio as to show me it was not happy with me hiding and watching it. It went though the wall of wood and with a fluid forward motion turned and went straight up at a very high rate of speed, sorta making a streak of light and disappeared in the sky."Later, the witness described this orb as being very aware and intelligent. As if wished to make a show of force knowing the witness was armed with his hand gun - who was boss in that situation. Several days later, the witness noticed the leaves on his tree where the 18 inch diameter object had passed through were brown and dead, while the rest of the tree was green and healthy. (not a Mufon case) And all this fuss about a nothing Florida Mufon case by comparison. A orb UFO case being investigated independently & quietly. Did this Florida case knock over with considerable force a large cord of wood? Not! This witness feels it was a probe of some kind. Days later a large black triangle appeared to his whole family in their back yard one summer evening. They fled inside their home after it shined down a bright beam of light on their patio deck. Since then, they have moved a number of times, and now reside in California. Their strange events have not abated. Having many missing time events, including seeing an entity in their backyard. Bright blue lights appearing in their sons bedroom. Mufon is quite far from being the only investigation group having the corner on UFO cases. Certainly not the interesting ones anymore. Steve
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