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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 21:46:48 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing that film, Lois. I also want to thank you for caring about the truth. You're a good lady. Gee! I thank you. I guess I care about all life past and present. I love History period. My brother is always saying . Who cares about all those dead people? He says he has enough to worry about in his own life here and now. I thought how cruel. If not for our ancestors we would not be here. Like our family History. He could care less. My family came with the German colonist of 1717. I know all who are my direct ancestors.. None of them fought in any Indian wars. Only the Revolution and none in the Civil war. One great great Uncle fought in the Spanish American War. He survived.. Lorelie . I guess I'm not like you in some sense here. I took History all through school . Also world history and World problems in my senior year. One son has followed me in loving History since he was seven years old and is not 44 . I've been a history buff ever since I started reading as a little squirt. I think I love learning in general, which is why I'm having so much fun in college. There's nothing like feeding your head. ;D My own ancestry is a bit complex. I have French, English and Native American on my maternal side, and English, Scottish, and more Native American on my paternal side. I look phenotypically "white" even though I'm approximately 1/3 native (my Native American ancestors are only two generations removed). My mother's relatives came from Canada (French-Canadian and Algonquin) and England in the early 19th century. My father's side of the family arrived from England before the Revolutionary War. They eventually hooked up with a Scottish émigré who arrived in the United States in the late 19th century, producing some kids. The English side married the Scottish side, who then had a kid (my grandfather) who subsequently had an affair with a woman who was mostly Seminole, producing my father. Back in those days, that was a big scandal. I don't have much to do with my father's side of the family, because they still tend to be bigoted and even racist. My father didn't like them either (he passed away last month after a long illness). Oh, the tangled webs we weave.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 9:31:55 GMT -6
My own opinion on the subject is more realistic: I think that, given time, the First Nations and their tribal allies across the continental United States would have eventually integrated with American society. Sadly, they were never given the chance. History is history, and what's done is done. Fortunately for us all, the U.S. government changed the way in which they dealt with the Native American tribes in the 20th century, and started to protect them instead of victimizing them. Because of that and the efforts of many concerned American citizens, the legacy of Native Americans is alive today. I'm sorry that you took my earlier post as "romanticizing" the plight of Native Americans, when this post of yours shows that you should completely understand what I was saying. I am alive today because my ancestors were not eliminated entirely (as are you). I suppose that you also think "The Diary of Anne Frank" is romanticizing ? And back to Columbus, my point was, we know now that there were maps, and other people that had "visited" here. His naming of the peoples here as "Indians" I'm just going to call lazy ;D.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 10:03:06 GMT -6
I've been a history buff ever since I started reading as a little squirt. I think I love learning in general, which is why I'm having so much fun in college. There's nothing like feeding your head. ;D I spent most of my time in school just trying to "survive". Now, I love learning, and am becoming a history buff. If you would like me to continue learning from you, don't be such a hater . Sorry about the recent loss of your dad.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 11:24:40 GMT -6
The Russians were a lot more horrible to Alaska Natives than what America did to Native Americans though... I learned about that in my Alaska History class...
I don't feel guilty about any of it though- nor do I hate white people for it. People have done horrible things to white people, brown people, yellow people and black people for a long time. It's not a racial thing. It's a human thing. Slavery existed in Africa long before the white slave traders came to Africa. Native Americans also enslaved other native Americans AND white people too.
People are evil- no matter what anyone says. It doesn't matter what color your skin and eyes are. If you are a human- you are capable of horrible crimes against other humans, animals, nature etc.
When I was bullied in school by nearly everyone I was bullied by people of all different shapes sizes colors and what have you. I was bullied by Black kids, White kids, Native kids, Asian kids... you name it. Everyone hated me- and I am white.
I don't feel the need to feel guilty about the atrocities committed by "white people" against "non-white people". Blaming all of the problems in the world on one particular race is, in my book, racist.
I didn't own slaves. I didn't kill native americans nor did I force the Cherokee to walk the trail of tears- as a matter of fact I am one fourth Cherokee. Just because my skin is white does not mean I had anything to do with these things.
I feel no guilt for the sins of my ancestors. Their actions had nothing to do with me.
By the way- I am a direct descendent of Robert E. Lee. I feel no guilt from that either- because I am not him.
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 11:53:53 GMT -6
I'm sorry that you took my earlier post as "romanticizing" the plight of Native Americans, when this post of yours shows that you should completely understand what I was saying. If I had understood it or agreed with it, I wouldn't have objected to it, now would I? What does Anne Frank's diary have to do with the Indian Removal Act of 1830 or the "Indian schools" that were built for the indoctrination of Native American children? Yes, yes, because a young girl's diary during the period she and her family hid from the Nazi Occupation is somehow relevant to this discussion... Riiiiight, because people never foster mistaken impressions, like those pesky Spaniards and Italians who thought that East Asia was just a brief jaunt across the big drink. Like Columbus himself, who even after receiving the news that he didn't reach Asia, stubbornly persisted in believing that he did. But hey, who gives a mayonnaise milkshake about historical archives, eh? Pffft. Schlock! Hausenpfeffer! Piffleburger! ;D
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 12:31:11 GMT -6
The Russians were a lot more horrible to Alaska Natives than what America did to Native Americans though... I learned about that in my Alaska History class... Ah, well...that settles it, then. Wounded Knee wasn't such a big deal after all, because those Russians did something even more nefarious. Silly me. Let's make sure to leave a note about that on the various memorials to Native American genocide scattered here and there. Here we have a twist on the tried and true naturalistic fallacy, wherein "A does it, B does it, C does it; therefore, that D did it is not worthy of our attention. It's just the way things are." Common knowledge, Lorelei. You know, some cars are green, regardless of what anyone says. If it is a car, then it is capable of being colored green.Being bullied sucks. I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Thanks to the work of the Human Genome Project and the efforts of geneticists across the globe, we know that every human being alive today is a member of the same race. When a person is armed with such knowledge, racism suddenly experiences a loss of all of its teeth. There is no such thing as the "white race" or the "black race." That mode of thinking is outdated, a remnant of a decidedly more igannant age. I don't operate using that flawed formula. The fact of the matter is, all human-generated problems are indeed caused by one race, Lorelei. The human race. Good for you. No one alive today is responsible for the Trail of Tears, African slavery, or the Great Depression. I repeat myself until I'm blue in the face and my fingers ache from typing the same letters over and over again...so let's try this one last time. The point of learning about history, Lorelei, is that we might avoid the mistakes of history ourselves. Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to make the same mistakes again. Never forget that.
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 12:34:35 GMT -6
I spent most of my time in school just trying to "survive". Now, I love learning, and am becoming a history buff. If you would like me to continue learning from you, don't be such a hater . Sorry about the recent loss of your dad. I had no idea that I was under a teaching contract, jcurio. News to me. Gosh, this recitation of history makes me a hater, eh? Oh well, haters are gonna hate, as the latest saying goes. I appreciate the sentiments. He had Alzheimer's, and I'm just glad that his suffering is over. It progressed rather quickly.
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 12:41:39 GMT -6
I did not realized anything had been moved. I guess you remember me as Shamira how nice! Sometimes when a member comes back and I make my first post I will tell them I was Shamira . Guess with you I did not do that. I was around during the MUFON forum days. I knew you first as Shamira.
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 13:05:47 GMT -6
I felt this was worthy of additional comment, since it reveals a psychopathological viewpoint of humanity that clings to learned helplessness. Learned helplessness might be described as follows: "Aw poop. Why bother? They screwed me before, are gonna screw me again, and will keep screwing me in the future. Why bother resisting?" People are evil- no matter what anyone says. It doesn't matter what color your skin and eyes are. If you are a human- you are capable of horrible crimes against other humans, animals, nature etc. I disagree. Humans are not "evil," and are not doomed to be "evil." Everyone has the capacity to choose how they interact with the world, unless they suffer from an organic malady that prevents them from properly using the brain residing between their ears. This is common knowledge, and why the law holds people accountable for their own actions. If you are incapable of controlling your own behavior and don't suffer from an organic disability, I would wonder why. "No matter what anyone says" is a statement intended to assign infallibility to your assertion, or an invincible igannance ploy. I don't buy it, and plenty of people say otherwise. You can indeed stop and think before you act, and you can definitely refrain from acting impulsively and recklessly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 15:24:43 GMT -6
I spent most of my time in school just trying to "survive". Now, I love learning, and am becoming a history buff. If you would like me to continue learning from you, don't be such a hater . Sorry about the recent loss of your dad. I had no idea that I was under a teaching contract, jcurio. News to me. Gosh, this recitation of history makes me a hater, eh? Oh well, haters are gonna hate, as the latest saying goes. I appreciate the sentiments. He had Alzheimer's, and I'm just glad that his suffering is over. It progressed rather quickly. My bad. I never once thought that you were "talking" just to hear yourself write ;D. I thought maybe I could learn something from you since you have done all that studying of the archives, etc. Are you "sharing" information only? I don't mind you "teaching" me a few things with your wealth of knowledge . Anne Frank was relevant to what I posted before on this subject. The Native Americans were not able to hide. Unless you're counting Bigfoot . Obviously we are misunderstanding each other. Your recitation of history doesn't make you a hater. Your obvious impatience with me, does. I have no idea what I have done for you to treat me in such a disrespectful manner.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 15:47:09 GMT -6
play nice bewildered...
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Post by bewildered on May 19, 2013 16:12:05 GMT -6
Understood. It's not okay to respond appropriately to those who address you inappropriately. I've looked over the exchanges here and quite frankly, I see nothing worthy of warning on my part. However, seeing as how I don't have the title of "Administrator" under my screen name, there's no point in pressing the issue.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 16:21:31 GMT -6
Like I said, I had no idea I was doing anything inappropriate towards you, BW. And I certainly won't post a picture of me banging my head, because that's beside the point.
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Post by lois on May 19, 2013 18:23:03 GMT -6
lorelei Most Americans do not feel guilty at what their ancestors did. I know I don't... but I do not like it.. Bewildered .. My ancestors came from Scotland also. You know the name Maclead don't you? Some say Mc cloud.. or watched any of the highlander movies with Christopher Lambert .. My father was mostly Scotch. My great grand parents smuggled away on a boat and landed in Canada. Work their way down from the Great Lakes into Illinois.. The clans fought and hated each other so they could never marry over there. Mackintosh was her name. Their daughter was my fathers Mother. German and English is what remains.
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Post by lois on May 19, 2013 18:29:44 GMT -6
I did not realized anything had been moved. I guess you remember me as Shamira how nice! Sometimes when a member comes back and I make my first post I will tell them I was Shamira . Guess with you I did not do that. I was around during the MUFON forum days. I knew you first as Shamira. Then you have heard my story with a ufo a thousand times. ;D ;D People on here maybe a few hundred times. ;D ;D I hate to ask people to go through my pages on my experience thread. You know what I mean if you go there. So I retell it. ;D
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Post by lois on May 19, 2013 18:33:10 GMT -6
My own opinion on the subject is more realistic: I think that, given time, the First Nations and their tribal allies across the continental United States would have eventually integrated with American society. Sadly, they were never given the chance. History is history, and what's done is done. Fortunately for us all, the U.S. government changed the way in which they dealt with the Native American tribes in the 20th century, and started to protect them instead of victimizing them. Because of that and the efforts of many concerned American citizens, the legacy of Native Americans is alive today. I'm sorry that you took my earlier post as "romanticizing" the plight of Native Americans, when this post of yours shows that you should completely understand what I was saying. I am alive today because my ancestors were not eliminated entirely (as are you). I suppose that you also think "The Diary of Anne Frank" is romanticizing ? And back to Columbus, my point was, we know now that there were maps, and other people that had "visited" here. His naming of the peoples here as "Indians" I'm just going to call lazy ;D. I think he called the people here Indians as he thought he was in the West Indies
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Post by lois on May 19, 2013 18:56:25 GMT -6
By the way my granddaughter is named Shamira. She just got married. My daughter's husband her father is from Cherokee descent. Her siblings resemble in looks with their parents. She resembles her great Grandmother . she was a Indian princess, daughter of a chief. Shamira is the image of her when she was young. She passed at age 100 a few years ago. A very nice lady. I miss her.
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Post by lois on May 19, 2013 19:42:10 GMT -6
Gee! I thank you. I guess I care about all life past and present. I love History period. My brother is always saying . Who cares about all those dead people? He says he has enough to worry about in his own life here and now. I thought how cruel. If not for our ancestors we would not be here. Like our family History. He could care less. My family came with the German colonist of 1717. I know all who are my direct ancestors.. None of them fought in any Indian wars. Only the Revolution and none in the Civil war. One great great Uncle fought in the Spanish American War. He survived.. Lorelie . I guess I'm not like you in some sense here. I took History all through school . Also world history and World problems in my senior year. One son has followed me in loving History since he was seven years old and is not 44 . I've been a history buff ever since I started reading as a little squirt. I think I love learning in general, which is why I'm having so much fun in college. There's nothing like feeding your head. ;D My own ancestry is a bit complex. I have French, English and Native American on my maternal side, and English, Scottish, and more Native American on my paternal side. I look phenotypically "white" even though I'm approximately 1/3 native (my Native American ancestors are only two generations removed). My mother's relatives came from Canada (French-Canadian and Algonquin) and England in the early 19th century. My father's side of the family arrived from England before the Revolutionary War. They eventually hooked up with a Scottish émigré who arrived in the United States in the late 19th century, producing some kids. The English side married the Scottish side, who then had a kid (my grandfather) who subsequently had an affair with a woman who was mostly Seminole, producing my father. Back in those days, that was a big scandal. I don't have much to do with my father's side of the family, because they still tend to be bigoted and even racist. My father didn't like them either (he passed away last month after a long illness). Oh, the tangled webs we weave. Sorry about your father.. I have lost both my parents. It is hard to let go but you do learn to go on without them. I meant to say under the 500 nation video. That my favorite story was the one with Osceola.. Could you tell me why he died in prison at age 34? From wounds? Sickness or just from all the pain in his life he endured?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 2:00:16 GMT -6
~sigh~
So many rough emotions... I wish he hadn't left because of them though...
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 7:02:31 GMT -6
I also went back over the comments I made.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to.
I don't take this subject lightly. I will continue to be grateful to those that somehow survived.
~sigh~
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Post by swamprat on May 20, 2013 7:14:17 GMT -6
"It's not okay to respond appropriately to those who address you inappropriately."I'm sorry for this intrusion into this conversation, but I am compelled to respond. It most cases it certainly IS "okay to respond appropriately to those who address us inappropriately"! Have you not heard of "turn the other cheek"? If one always responds appropriately, there can be no disruptive battles and ego contests. You can still debate, argue even, but the thread does not disintegrate into anarchy. (Just a thought.) Carry on.....
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Post by skywalker on May 20, 2013 19:30:23 GMT -6
Aaaa-mazing. I'm away from the forum for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose. I should be back tomorrow if we still have any members left.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 20:52:26 GMT -6
I guess you better quit leaving us temper-mental types alone for more than a couple of hours ;D
(sorry sky, I did get just a wee bit mad)
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Post by lois on May 20, 2013 21:14:29 GMT -6
Just got here.. This is too bad. The thought came to me last night as I was trying to go to sleep. Bewildered will probably leave. I spoke to soon. He is not the arguing kind usually. .. I was going to like this link . My favorite topic. He was getting out of hand with Randy .. I agree with that .. It was good he had this other thread with the same topic.. I could not stand reading the other. I do read Randy's post on the subject. A lot what he reads seems to be too much as he reads things that seem to make the war between the whites and natives so much worse than I expected. I will say our government will put a lid on what really happens in any given situation. We all know that. Yes our history has been rewritten.. Same events told many different ways. What are you going to believe? I guess the one I hear most from the most sources I read. ;D I did not know he was part native american after all these years.. Thanks Paul for your post.
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Post by lois on May 20, 2013 21:23:50 GMT -6
Aaaa-mazing. I'm away from the forum for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose. I should be back tomorrow if we still have any members left. I will still be here sky. You know me. If Rike and Alex could not run me off no one could. ;D ;D I still remember my first ufo forum and almost my first post. quote. What the heck is this guy named Rike doing here anyway? He does not believe any experiencer here.. He is a nut....He needs his own forum.. How to debunk ufos. he only knows two words for a reply .. FALSE MEMORIES.. ;D ;D
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Post by lois on May 20, 2013 21:32:09 GMT -6
I will admit he brought tons of information to the forum when it came to the government. I just learned to put up with his smart remarks to my post. Like Paul says turn the other cheek.. arguing only makes more arguments .
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CitizenK
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I'm Back Guys!!! I've missed you so much!!!
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Post by CitizenK on May 20, 2013 23:29:22 GMT -6
Well hells fire , brimstone, and mayhem abounds!!!!!! What on Earth has become of this thread? Bewildered has left the building?!?!?! (and yes dear, you got out of hand...I know you are going through a lot right now, I hope you are alright, this is very out of character for you!) Most of his points are accurate, however the blatant disrespect was uncalled for and deserves apologies...even though some things said really had no bearing being on this thread, it is still no excuse for going off on anyone. I do not understand the dynamics behind such replies but I do hope that Bewildered is alright and that this can all be resolved quickly so we can get back to being our big happy family. (Bewildered included ) *Swampy; you're like our daddy bear, you never say much but when you do people listen! (maybe I should compare you to E.F. Hutton ;D )
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 5:31:10 GMT -6
Bewildered has left the building?!?!?! (and yes dear, you got out of hand...I know you are going through a lot right now, I hope you are alright, this is very out of character for you!) sheesh! Let's rub salt in my wounds. I am sorry. I don't want anyone to leave. . . . .
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 7:43:20 GMT -6
But this is precisely how the lessons of history are ignored, jcurio, and how similar mistakes are eventually made again. By romanticizing, rationalizing, and justifying . . . Let me clarify, lest someone think I am having a tantrum that is out of character . And, due to some minor discomfort in my life. This statement is what made me angry. Someone, please tell me how anything of this magnitude, this unjustified, this horrific that is beyond rationalization, could EVER happen again on planet Earth. Underground??
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 7:45:56 GMT -6
oh yeah. maybe an alien invasion .
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