|
Post by auntym on May 22, 2011 13:51:31 GMT -6
I've seen that story from the nephew before. the problem with it is that it is all hearsay. He heard about the story from his uncle who never believed the abduction story so of course he's going to be negative about it, but where's his evidence? Where is the proof? That's the question the debunkers are always asking. I think the burdon of providing proof should be on anybody who makes outrageous claims, whether it be for or against, not just one or the other. i agree sky.... i can't believe anyone would put stock into what a relative of a witness would say.... ..... the same goes for betty hill's niece , i believe her last name is marden.... they're just cashing in on a relative's claim this is why i like to get the videos of the actual experiencer/witness telling their story.... this is also why there are so many different stories about the same single incident... just because someone claims they debunked something doesn't mean its debunked..... don't believe everything you read.... ;D oh wow....i'm on a roll.... ok....i'm stepping down from my soapbox now....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 14:41:29 GMT -6
Good points..but there are also facts that add to it. The ending contracts were real..they had financial problems. There were medical anomalies..also. Travis wasn't bruised even though he made 'hard' contact with the ground..there was a small red spot near his elbow but not near any veins. His urine was tested for ketones..and it tested fine. Had he been gone for that length of time without food and water, as he insisted, his body should have begun breaking down fats and hadn't. There was nothing in the medical examination to give any weight to his story. He was not chronically in trouble with the law but along with his brother had been convicted of check fraud over which Travis stated he spent time in jail but was actually given probation. There were things that didn't add up over and above what the nephew said but like everything else to do with UFO's we have to make our own minds up. He did become pretty wealthy because of his story but that in itself doesn't make him a liar. I think it's very odd that he was kept for such a period of time and that there wasn't physical evidence on his body and I'm also leery of his financial problems before hand. He had also lied by stating he had no interest in UFO's when others testified that he had always had a 'keen' interest. I think no one but Travis will ever really know about this one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Walton
|
|
|
Post by lois on May 22, 2011 17:46:17 GMT -6
The book I read 12 years ago and lost it, told of a man who was missing five years of his life. I posted it on mufon.. He wrote the book himself. He was selling them at the Malls. My son Ron, who lives in cape Girardeau, Mo. got me one and talk to this guy for a few minutes. He told him what I experienced in 72.. The man told him to tell me. She should praise God they put her back in a few hours. That is what went through my mind the rest of the night. He had went out to get the morning paper..looked up and seen a saucer shape craft. 5 years later he is in a hotel in New York, in a room he did not check into. It was vacant at the time. Most of this book is about him finding his family, he was married with children. They had moved, I believe it was in Ohio. Anyway she did not believe him. And got a divorce. Poor guy went to therapy for years when regressed, I don't believe he remembered anything about the last five years of his life. I often wonder where he is today .. I don't remember when he was abducted, what year I mean, but the book was in the late 90s. I bet my son Ron, won't remember the name of it either. I believe I already ask him once.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on May 22, 2011 18:39:08 GMT -6
Good points..but there are also facts that add to it. The ending contracts were real..they had financial problems. There were medical anomalies..also. Travis wasn't bruised even though he made 'hard' contact with the ground..there was a small red spot near his elbow but not near any veins. His urine was tested for ketones..and it tested fine. Had he been gone for that length of time without food and water, as he insisted, his body should have begun breaking down fats and hadn't. There was nothing in the medical examination to give any weight to his story. He was not chronically in trouble with the law but along with his brother had been convicted of check fraud over which Travis stated he spent time in jail but was actually given probation. There were things that didn't add up over and above what the nephew said but like everything else to do with UFO's we have to make our own minds up. He did become pretty wealthy because of his story but that in itself doesn't make him a liar. I think it's very odd that he was kept for such a period of time and that there wasn't physical evidence on his body and I'm also leery of his financial problems before hand. He had also lied by stating he had no interest in UFO's when others testified that he had always had a 'keen' interest. I think no one but Travis will ever really know about this one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Walton en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_WaltonI am quite impressed with the details outlined in the Wikipedia report. Wikipedia, if accurate as it truly seems, clearly outlines how detailed facts were arrived at, and how these facts were collected, by whom, and how biases by players in the case have attempted to sway how we view this controversial case as we see it today. How various characters, debunkers, law enforcement (except Sheriff Gillespie), polygraph examiners have shown their various biases. The Wikipedia page on Walton attempts successfully to portray the facts by their proper weight. For instance, the financial issues with the forestry contracts. Interesting that the loggers where indeed under a lot of pressure to complete a forest clearing job - a job larger than originally anticipated, yet past history showed (contrary to Klass) that this work crew had been late before with previous work assignments, and that the same workers were still rehired for new work. Diminishing the issue Klass asserted (wrongly) Walton's work crew created an 'act of God' clause to nullify the contract. Not so! Klass lied (again). I also was always doubtful of Walton's first polygraph test. It is clear now that the examiner was very bias and leading, irrelevant questions, all to discredit Walton's claims. Also interesting about the Intelligence officer who claimed to be hunting near by. All in an elaborate scheme that failed to discredit Walton as well. I was surprised Walton's brother in law did not report to police as soon as perhaps he should have, but seeing how the police were in his opinion handling this missing person case already, perhaps his actions were understandable. Most irritating of all is UFO investigator Spaulding (Ground Saucer Watch), who made misleading promises offering a physician to privately examine Walton, who disappointingly later turned out to be only a hypnotheripist when his offer was needed most. Spaulding's ego damaged (damn - too many bad egos in Ufology (Mufon too)- here is a shining bad example!) - not only misleading those seeking help, advertising himself beyond his capacity in any real way...now embarrassed - tried then to damage efforts to find the truth. Also as a side note, much credit should be given to Screenwriter Tracy Tormé - who even sent letters to many ufologists, claiming that the changes in the script of 'Fire in the Sky' were requested by studio officials, and apologizing for making such substantial alterations to Walton's narrative. Good for him. The studio head ruining the film explains why I do not like this film compared to others such as 'Intruders' and 'The UFO Incident'. As far as Walton's ketones test, (lack of ketones) it is an important fact. But also, has anyone considered perhaps some 'time displacement' may have occurred during Walton's proceeding five days? Five days by our time - but just several hours aboard the craft by Walton's? Walton's impression was just several hours. Perhaps both are correct? As fantastic as this may seem, in context with all the other aspects of this case, it does not seem unreasonable a question I think. Such 'time displacement' would fit with Einstein's theory of general relativity. It might also explain the absence of Ketones in Walton's urine test. Five days missing is a very long time as abductions go, but I think in Walton's case, some traveling to a different far off location may have occurred on the aliens part. Other abductions since may employ more stealth of the UFO itself, it is possible that most abductions long since may have the UFO being in actuality not all that far away, just cloaked... There was another significant abduction case in Australia I am trying to pin down which many here discussing the Walton case might find very interesting. In the Australian case, the witness was not removed from others by five days, but gone for about 5 hours only. What was significant was... the witness was returned and found 5 hours later on the other side of the Australian continent! The witness could not have traveled this distance in that length of time by our aircraft, even supersonically! I am still searching for that one. The Wikipedia treatment seems clear, informative, and unbiased in reporting many of the view points of the investigation. It has changed my view of the Walton case as well, giving it more credibility now in my mind - particularly the reasons for Walton failing the first polygraph test - which has now been adequately explained IMO. Steve
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 18:54:52 GMT -6
I know I can be a determined pain in the posterior but I thought it was a very good unbiased report giving all sides of the issue and that's exactly what I'm interested in...all sides In my wee brain..unless we actually look for counter evidence and examine all sides..we're just fooling ourselves. I don't trust anything off hand anymore.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on May 28, 2011 22:22:36 GMT -6
I wonder why the vehicle the six dudes were driving in wasn't affected be the UFO? Usually when a UFO is in the vicinity there is electronic interference that causes car engines to die yet somehow they were able to drive away from the scene. What's up with that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 3:26:41 GMT -6
I wonder why the vehicle the six dudes were driving in wasn't affected be the UFO? Usually when a UFO is in the vicinity there is electronic interference that causes car engines to die yet somehow they were able to drive away from the scene. What's up with that? Maybe because the target they were interested in was outside of the vehicle... Maybe they only interfere with the vehicle if its occupant is the occupant of interest...
|
|
|
Post by Steve on May 29, 2011 11:02:18 GMT -6
Any view point from the alien perspective is always fascinating and endless because we never (or seldom ever) have the alien view of the play of events.
From what I have noticed over the years is - if an alien craft reveals itself that close to witnesses, it is always for the occupants of this craft's own reasons.
You seldom stumble onto a craft on your own volition, though it appears it does happen sometimes. One example is the Lonnie Zamora case in New Mexico in 1964, where Patrolman Zamora caught sight of a craft and it's occupants on the ground around the landed object for a short time. The occupants seemed surprised and were able to promptly depart.
My hunch is the Walton craft was there ready for an opportunity, having observed in previous days the work pattern of Walton and his companions. It may have been possible the entire group of men were available to be taken if necessary, but one may have been sufficient for their needs. The object brought attention to itself on the lonely road, so only those in that one truck saw it.
The situation presented an abduction that was as cleanly as was possible for the aliens at that moment, the question was separating perhaps the one 'specimen' from the others.
Kidnapping we know is a serious crime, one we do not think about much fortunately. Most impressions of how a kidnapping occurs is usually from the crime section of the news or more predominately - scenes from movies. I imagine something prepared before hand, practiced, a car drives up to a city sidewalk, a door opens, someone from behind shoves someone into the car, the car door slams and the car quickly drives off. In Walton's case, it could have been just as fast - once the others in the truck fled.
A telepathic message was possibly sent baiting Walton. Walton bolted toward the object from the stopped truck up the wooded hill grade (object was just some 150 feet away now), then either the object shot the energy beam offensively in a premeditated act to incapacitate Travis and take him, or shot the beam defensively in an unpremeditated way because the human came too close for their comfort. Then they did not want to leave him there in the woods with other animals about, and/or perhaps laying incapacitated on the ground - Walton had physical traces of the beam they wanted erased first.
The craft was described also being only some 8 feet in height, and only some 20 to 25 feet in diameter - size of a large automobile. It could be simply there was little room in the object for more abductees. The UFO could even have been normally operated unoccupied - a small automated taxi.
Later Walton described an interior much larger than the physical size of the object he saw in the forest. I would be so bold to say the craft that zapped Walton was a small shuttle, and was taken to a much larger craft somewhere else (both in space and in time).
I think importantly too that some sort of time displacement occurred. Walton by our time was gone 5 days. Walton best we can tell had the impression he was gone from his home for just several hours. Both would be correct if a near light speed transit happened - the time displacement one clear effect of this.
Walton mentioned having gone without food or water during his experience. Without considering time displacement, Walton without food or water would have shown ketone's in his urine tests. But from Walton's and his abductors perspective - only several hours passed knowing what we know about Einstein's general relativity. If so, it would be natural and too early for ketone's to show up. Walton did display signs of dehydration, drinking no water and likely his body under great stress, a higher than normal metabolic rate - (adrenalin) loosing water through his skin.
Not incapacitating the truck electrical systems may have been part of the scheme knowing the humans in fear would flee long enough for the object to be out of sight to make a hasty escape.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by paulette on Jun 2, 2011 22:07:30 GMT -6
Steve - great hypotheses. Cutting out one of a herd is common practice when capturing a herd animal - whether by human or animal predators. Observing beforehand is also part of the drill.
I was intregued by the concept - maybe cars stop functioning when the inhabitants of the cars are being considered for abduction. Many people may be scanned and rejected - remember how in Species she determined that the man she had chosen was a diabetic and therefore not suitable as a dna donor? Also some drivers are too old. We've already kicked around the concept that none of us have been bothered since middle age. (Although people might observe UFOs at a distance of all ages).
And then the time/distance warp....When is 5 days = two hours? Answer: not in this particular time/space continuum - as we perceive it.
I would really really like someone to post some data about false negatives and positives on polygraph tests. I have heard that sociopaths can pass incriminating questions and I have also heard firsthand of a young man who was experimenting with stimulant drugs and was picked up (in our very small town in Texas in about 1966 because a young girl was killed in her bed [it was never solved but persumed to be an in-house crime]. Said young man was prone to night walks (he worked late nights at the restaurant where I worked). He said that went they hauled him in he was high and terrified. The testor told him he would have failed if all of his answers hadn't been taken into consideration - he basically had an abnormal reaction to all the questions. He was not investigated past that test. Had he actually done it (I don't THINK so. How would I know?). Does being terrified have a similar biochemical signature to a guilty body reaction? I wonder. And as I asked before - if the person doesn't believe him or herself - is that indicated on a polygraph???
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Jun 2, 2011 22:25:16 GMT -6
Polygraphs can be totally inaccurate which is why they are not allowed as evidence in court. They measure physiological changes in the body (heart rate, blood pressure, etc...) caused by emotional responses to the questions, but those responses aren't always indicative of a lie being told. If a person is scared or agitated then the test could show them lying on every question whether they are or not. On the other hand, if a person believes that he is telling the truth then it will show up as an honest answer, even if they are lying about everything. Another reason why they are inaccurate is because they depend a lot on how the person conducting the polygraph interprets the results. One person may see a response as a lie, while another person may see it as an honest answer. It's very subjective. One other interesting note about polygraphs is that it is possible to deliberately fool the machine simply by controlling your physiological responses. Our intelligence agencies actually teach some of our undercover agents how to do that. It's not very difficult to do. Not that I would know or anything...
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Jun 2, 2011 22:30:03 GMT -6
Another question that just popped into my head about the cars and trucks cutting off...I wonder if that is a byproduct of being close to the UFO or if it is done deliberately?
|
|
|
Post by paulette on Jun 3, 2011 8:59:27 GMT -6
OK: This is off a site called justicedenied: Aggressive interrogation before a polygraph examination is one of several causes of erroneous polygraph test results. Psychological sensitivity, as consistently being accused of a crime one did not commit, can and will produce false positive results.
I don't know where in the process Travis was given this test. Certainly not immediately. Other reading I did suggests that drug use complicates interpretation. It is likely in my mind that since one accusation was that he was somewhere else using cocaine (I DID read that didn't I?) that the guys may ALL (or maybe just he) were using some coke to get the job done in the woods. Lots (more than you want to know) of blue collar workers use it to get through long shifts or work nonstop - here in Canada that is. So they were done for the day, driving out, do and line or two so they could party later into the night....and the d...n UFO shows up. (They never seem to come at a "good" time).
After telling his story Walton discovered that the world does not love a UFO victim. Who knows when the polygraphs began. Skywalker wrote earlier that 6 of the guys PASSED the polygraph test. Were they trained subversive undercover people who knew how to do that? Or maybe less wrecked than Walton? As Steve remarked above - he may not really have known what happened to him after he was left on the mountain...
There's a reason why polygraphs aren't accepted - even pro articles admit that there's a 4-10% rate of inaccuracy. They are interrogation devices and the more one has to be afraid of, the less likely they are to be pinpointing a particular area of anxiety. Plus, as one article suggested - you can always contract your sphincter muscle (everyone know where that is?) on non-threatening questions to skew the results...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 10:20:13 GMT -6
I think...it wasn't the fact the tests were failed or passed so much as the way the questions were skewed by the National Enquirer (I think that was the tabloid) and that the first test administered to Travis (which wasn't the Enquirer's, he failed). All of that aside..polygraph tests are notoriously dodgy because the human brain can perform some pretty amazing tricks. I don't know if the case is real or a hoax..it's a stand out as far as similarities to others but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I still feel..that if there is counter evidence to consider..that both sides need to be presented equally. How can someone come to a conclusion based on all information if part of the information is not there. If mother Theresa had had that encounter...I'm guessing folks would have called it a miracle and skipped the polygraph completely. Isn't it interesting that the Mother Theresa's aren't the ones abducted?
|
|
|
Post by spotless38 on Jun 3, 2011 10:24:12 GMT -6
HI Paulette . I have read quite a lot posts on Travis . But I missed the boat on him when he was in Murphysburogh Tn. He claims that all movies and history programs have added dramitic parts and changed the truth on what happened . A friend went to see him and he bought the book about him and he signed it . It is different than what we saw . My friend said that he is very physic since his encounter . and a very friendly person . If you ever get a chance to see him .... DO IT. Ron
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 13:08:17 GMT -6
HI Paulette . I have read quite a lot posts on Travis . But I missed the boat on him when he was in Murphysburogh Tn. He claims that all movies and history programs have added dramitic parts and changed the truth on what happened . A friend went to see him and he bought the book about him and he signed it . It is different than what we saw . My friend said that he is very physic since his encounter . and a very friendly person . If you ever get a chance to see him .... DO IT. Ron I dunno about you guys, but I would like to hug and smoochie him. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by spotless38 on Jun 3, 2011 13:16:33 GMT -6
HI Paulette . I have read quite a lot posts on Travis . But I missed the boat on him when he was in Murphysburogh Tn. He claims that all movies and history programs have added dramitic parts and changed the truth on what happened . A friend went to see him and he bought the book about him and he signed it . It is different than what we saw . My friend said that he is very physic since his encounter . and a very friendly person . If you ever get a chance to see him .... DO IT. Ron I dunno about you guys, but I would like to hug and smoochie him. ;D ;D ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 13:45:24 GMT -6
Um Lorelei..is there a man you wouldn't want to hug and smoochie?? Methinks you are a huggable/smoochable person I don't have any desire to meet Travis or other abduction victims..but I sure do have sympathy pains for what they carry around inside of them. Or are there really people who think it would be fun to end up on a slab naked as a jaybird with bug eyed terrorists performing heaven only knows what tests? If the Travis Walton case is real..then he suffered the fear and confusion all victims do. He's made money off of his abduction but I think that's pretty small compensation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 13:54:16 GMT -6
Um Lorelei..is there a man you wouldn't want to hug and smoochie?? Methinks you are a huggable/smoochable person I don't have any desire to meet Travis or other abduction victims..but I sure do have sympathy pains for what they carry around inside of them. Or are there really people who think it would be fun to end up on a slab naked as a jaybird with bug eyed terrorists performing heaven only knows what tests? If the Travis Walton case is real..then he suffered the fear and confusion all victims do. He's made money off of his abduction but I think that's pretty small compensation. That's why I want to hug and smoochie him... because I also feel sympathy pains for him. Hugs and smoochies are good medicine for emotional turmoil... I know they make me feel better... ;D I wouldn't want to hug and smoochie Jim Sparks though. He kinda freaks me out... There are masochists in this world though unfortunately... you know... those people who like to fantasize about being raped... ~grimace~ One of my girlfriends has a cat who is a masochist. It's... interesting. I accidentally kicked her once because I didn't know she was under my feet and she started purring! My girlfriend says it's really hard to punish a cat who is a masochist... she has to lock her in the crate to teach her a lesson she says... weird cat... she's also obsessed with the smell of my winter boots when I take them off she sticks her whole head into them and rolls over onto her back in ecstasy... only with my boots... nobody else's... I watched a program about that on the Discovery channel. Some people (and animals too) have a nervous system problem where pain registers as pleasure. It's... really... weird... but true...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 17:37:08 GMT -6
Now THAT's freaky...although..female cats purr during labor so I guess it's not that far fetched. Interesting tho..
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Jun 3, 2011 19:24:21 GMT -6
I'm going to try to attend the UFO festival in Roswell this July and Travis will be one of the guest speakers there so hopefully I'll get to meet him. I'm not going to hug and smoochie him though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 23:16:39 GMT -6
Well that's refreshing...LOL
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 3:50:12 GMT -6
I'm going to try to attend the UFO festival in Roswell this July and Travis will be one of the guest speakers there so hopefully I'll get to meet him. I'm not going to hug and smoochie him though. Cool!
|
|
|
Post by paulette on Jun 5, 2011 13:54:08 GMT -6
Now THAT's freaky...although..female cats purr during labor so I guess it's not that far fetched. Interesting tho.. I know firsthand that my old cat purred as he was dying (in my lap). Paulette PS - no drugs. Just wore out and died.
|
|
|
Post by mdaisy on Jun 5, 2011 14:12:51 GMT -6
Now THAT's freaky...although..female cats purr during labor so I guess it's not that far fetched. Interesting tho.. I know firsthand that my old cat purred as he was dying (in my lap). Paulette PS - no drugs. Just wore out and died. I am not sure how this fits into the Travis Walton case as I have not read the full thread. Cats purr when they are happy, stressed or in pain. Some people think they purr as it hearkens back to when they were kittens and their feline mother purred to soothe them. Purring soothes both the cat and the cat owner. daisy Feline friend and cat lover
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2011 14:29:27 GMT -6
I am not sure how this fits into the Travis Walton case as I have not read the full thread. Cats purr when they are happy, stressed or in pain. Some people think they purr as it hearkens back to when they were kittens and their feline mother purred to soothe them. Purring soothes both the cat and the cat owner. daisy Feline friend and cat lover My friend who has the cat is a cat person too Daisy. She knows a lot about them, she was raised around them. I do not know a lot about cats, I'm a dog person. Thanks for the info... ... but my friend's cat is still a masochist. After the accidental kicking incident (I felt really bad about that by the way) the cat came over to me and rubbed up affectionately against my leg. You would think if she didn't like it she would have run off... She truly can't be punished unless she is put in the crate. She enjoys being punished. It's really very strange... she even likes being squirted with the water bottle. I love kitties too, I'm just not very familiar with their mannerisms. Sorry for getting this thread off topic. Travis Walton is Da Bomb. ;D
|
|
|
Post by auntym on Jun 20, 2011 12:26:11 GMT -6
www.ghosttheory.com/2011/06/20/travis-walton-interview-ask-a-question GHOST THEORY is offering their readers a chance to be a part of this event by participating in a Q&A with Travis. Please submit your questions by leaving them in the comment section below. We will try and get as many questions as possible to Travis, so make it count! As always, we are looking for the type of intelligent and provocative questions we have come to expect here at Ghosttheory. I know you won’t let us down. There is a time limit for submission. All questions must be in by June 26 to qualify. So get your thinking foil caps on and submit your questions below. We look forward to this interview and expect it to be our best yet. TO FIND OUT MORE INFORMATION CLICK ON ABOVE LINK
|
|
|
Post by paulette on Jun 21, 2011 13:36:06 GMT -6
Travis, do you feel that you have changed (or been changed) by your experiences? Do you have psychological changes (enhancement of extra-sensory or a continuing trauma reaction) or physical changes (illness or speeded healing)? (Or anything else new to you.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 16:18:47 GMT -6
travis, do you feel that when they took you that it was for humanities benefit,,, or for their own agenda ?
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Jun 21, 2011 17:32:12 GMT -6
Thank you Travis for giving us this opportunity to ask questions about your experience.
Have you or anyone close to you considered perhaps some 'time displacement' may have happened during the five days you were missing from your abduction?
Five days by our time - but seemingly just a few hours aboard the craft from your best recollection. Could both perhaps be correct? This would fit Einstein's theory of general relativity. It might also explain the absence of Ketones in your urine test when you returned?
Respectfully,
Steve
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 19:58:25 GMT -6
I think we have to post our questions on the link auntym posted for the article... and not on the forum thread... but that's just my guess...
|
|