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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 14:57:40 GMT -6
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Post by skywalker on May 25, 2011 19:56:48 GMT -6
It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to explain away UFO a sighting. That is the nuttiest story I have ever heard. The person who wrote that book must have tin-foil over her type-writer because she is a loon.  |
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Post by Steve on May 25, 2011 21:36:49 GMT -6
I actually got similar announcements on this a week ago. After I read the email announcement, it was so absurd I was actually too embarrassed to forward it to friends.
Annie Jacobsen writes: "The Roswell saucer was Russian-made and crewed by human children who were surgically altered to resemble aliens by Nazi death-camp doctor Joseph Mengele, acting at Joseph Stalin's behest."
Jacobsen might be some sort of disinformation operative using her book as one more in a long line of ploys to form the impression in the public mind that any and all media/public speakers discussing the Roswell topic must be just as absurd too.
Interesting how just a few years ago we had James Carrion (former fired / resigned - take your pick - Mufon International Director) proclaiming there was never any ET connection with the 1947 Roswell/Socorro crash reports too. Now this Annie Jacobsen.
Critics attacking Budd Hopkin's research legacy, now this book by this 'Jacobsen' on the Roswell plank. If the predicted pattern remains on track, expect a new Roswell book to be 'home published' again in a few years that Leprechauns were behind the Roswell event too.
The Internet is such a strange realm. A place that creates an illusion of privacy, where there really is no privacy. Where everyone feels connected, but is really remote & detached. Where everyone can become a non-authority authority about anything and everything. Now this.
Is 'Coast to Coast' going to even touch this one?
How embarrassing.
Steve
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Post by auntym on May 25, 2011 22:35:34 GMT -6
this is all over TWITTER....but i didn't tweet any of them because i thought it was stupid..... i think its safe to call her a .....LOONEY TUNE .... ;D |
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Post by bewildered on May 25, 2011 23:37:24 GMT -6
It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to explain away UFO a sighting. That is the nuttiest story I have ever heard. The person who wrote that book must have tin-foil over her type-writer because she is a loon. I'll play the devil's advocate and point out that there are people who share precisely the same view of those who believe it was an incident involving craft and occupants of extra-terrestrial origin. They have just as much ammunition backing up their salvos as those on the other side of the fence do. In fact, you might say that circumstances are decidedly in their favor in the evidence department. Continuing the devil's advocate scenario, this person's seemingly implausible and whacky scenario isn't any further "out there" than ones involving extra-terrestrials and attendant craft. What you have is anecdotal evidence all around. The internet does indeed lend an artificial air of plausibility to virtually any tale imaginable...anecdotes become "evidence," images are subject to digital modification, and videos can be made by virtually anyone with a modicum of effort and ingenuity. Why do you think hoaxes are so proliferate? The more pervasive the media, the easier it is to perpetrate a fraud. As a final word in this vein, care should be taken that one does not become that which they despise; namely, a "debunker" who spews blindness and misunderstanding all over that which they do not see and do not understand. Are their views truly so different from your own? Is your behavior any different than theirs? Here's the devil's advocate version of your statement, sky. I'm betting it looks awfully familiar: It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to believe in a UFO sighting. That is the nuttiest story I have ever heard. The person who wrote that book must have tin-foil over her type-writer because she is a loon. |
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2011 2:08:36 GMT -6
I wanted to know a bit more about Ms Jacobsen and frankly she has some amazing credentials. She's by no means a nut case. The story of how she came to write this is more interesting to me than she is though. It was pretty much handed to her. And it strikes me that maybe someone went to a great deal of trouble to 'hatch' this newest version of area 51. Casting even more doubt on a very controversial subject. Maybe someone needed the skills of a very good investigative reporter. I think the entire Russian thing is nutty but just for a moment...consider that those people who reported seeing a craft and aliens...could have been misdirected. I'm not saying they were (before you guys drag out the hangmans noose for me) but there is some interesting stuff going on if you think about it. National Geographic airing 'documentaries' on alien invasions and giving Pentagon protocol on how to talk with them and this book..it just seems a bit 'strange' in media land right now. Before this book..she wrote one on how 9/11 could happen again...something is just off to me. www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/books/area-51-by-annie-jacobsen-review.html?pagewanted=1'Annie Jacobsen is a contributing editor for the Los Angeles Times Magazine and writes a weekly column called “Backstory” which can be read at latimes.com. Her work has also appeared in the National Review and The Dallas Morning News. An internationally recognized investigative reporter, articles about Annie Jacobsen have appeared in The New York Times, Foreign Policy Magazine, London Telegraph and Shanghai Daily. She has made guest appearances on more than 600 radio shows speaking to such diverse audiences as “National Public Radio” and “The Savage Nation” about national security and intelligence matters. TV appearances include ABC, MSNBC, FOX News and CNN. Jacobsen graduated from St. Paul’s School in New Hampshire, in 1985, and Princeton University, in 1989, where she wrote with Joyce Carol Oates and Paul Auster, studied Greek, and served as captain of the Princeton Women’s Ice Hockey Team. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband Kevin and their two sons.' |
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2011 2:32:29 GMT -6
So it is easier to believe that some sick *bleep* murdered innocent children and mutilated their bodies in order to fool people into thinking they weren't human? REALLY?  This is easier to believe and more logical than the alternative explanation of EBEs? REALLLLLYYYYY? I don't think so. Anyway... WHY would ANYONE want to spend all of that time, effort, and money on doing such a deplorable thing? Absurd. Completely and utterly absurd. |
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Post by bewildered on May 26, 2011 6:41:10 GMT -6
So it is easier to believe that some sick *bleep* murdered innocent children and mutilated their bodies in order to fool people into thinking they weren't human? REALLY? This is easier to believe and more logical than the alternative explanation of EBEs? REALLLLLYYYYY? I don't think so. Anyway... WHY would ANYONE want to spend all of that time, effort, and money on doing such a deplorable thing? Absurd. Completely and utterly absurd. It's not as absurd as you paint it to be. When you consider the horrible, terrible things that people have done and continue to do to other human beings every day in various parts of the world (some of those parts very, very close to home), it's in the realm of the possible, not impossible. An example that is close to home: infecting a group of African American men with a venereal disease (syphilis) without their knowledge or consent, and not treating the disease in order to study the effects the disease has over a period of time. It has been called the Tuskegee Experiment. The data for the experiment would be collected via autopsy after these men died. They were deliberately not treated and allowed to suffer the fatal effects of syphilis. MK-ULTRA is another example that is close to home. In the 1950s and on into at least the 1960s, the CIA conducted covert experiments on Americans and Canadian citizens. Only a few subjects were known to have cooperated willingly. They used drugs such as LSD, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, and verbal and sexual abuse. Those are but drops in the bucket of atrocities committed on humans by humans. If we factor in murder, torture, the harvesting of people (such as prison inmates) for their internal organs and other body tissues...the picture begins to become so horrific and vile, you begin to wonder what a human being truly is, and is not. |
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Post by bewildered on May 26, 2011 8:00:56 GMT -6
The point of the exercise of devil's advocate is not to practice contrariness; rather, it is a tool one may use to refine vision and identify anomalies: those places in our field of awareness that are extrapolated and essentially created out of thin air. It exposes the vulnerability of belief for what it is - a perspective and nothing more. Someone's firmly held belief is another's absurd story. You can quite literally hypnotize yourself into believing anything. The only way to realize what is going on and circumvent it is to adapt a different point of view. By doing so, you are enabled to to perceive the "shadow" of what you yourself believe.
I don't "believe" this writer's version of events any more than I believe any other version. Why? My reason is simple: in the void of objective evidence, all we have is conjecture, anecdotes, and possibilities. People typically identify with memes that most closely sympathize with their own inner schema. Belief is an assumption.
One may assume that such an atrocious, horrible thing as related in the writer's story could never, ever be done to human beings by other human beings. That is a belief, an assumption that is contradicted by objective evidence. I can point to the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps, the vile crime of the Catholic Inquisitions, the exploitation of children and others in unspeakable ways, the horrors of war, the willingness of power groups to do whatever it takes in their pursuit of power and knowledge...and so on. Every day, somewhere on this planet, unspeakably vile and unthinkable things are being done to human beings by other human beings.
This writer's tale is no more absurd than any other tale regarding Roswell. It does require eyes to see that.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2011 10:26:44 GMT -6
I think it's only an 'exercise' if others are playing ;D
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Post by skywalker on May 26, 2011 20:53:08 GMT -6
It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to explain away a UFO sighting. That is the nuttiest story I have ever heard. The person who wrote that book must have tin-foil over her type-writer because she is a loon. I'll play the devil's advocate and point out that there are people who share precisely the same view of those who believe it was an incident involving craft and occupants of extra-terrestrial origin. They have just as much ammunition backing up their salvos as those on the other side of the fence do. In fact, you might say that circumstances are decidedly in their favor in the evidence department. Continuing the devil's advocate scenario, this person's seemingly implausible and whacky scenario isn't any further "out there" than ones involving extra-terrestrials and attendant craft. What you have is anecdotal evidence all around. The internet does indeed lend an artificial air of plausibility to virtually any tale imaginable...anecdotes become "evidence," images are subject to digital modification, and videos can be made by virtually anyone with a modicum of effort and ingenuity. Why do you think hoaxes are so proliferate? The more pervasive the media, the easier it is to perpetrate a fraud. As a final word in this vein, care should be taken that one does not become that which they despise; namely, a "debunker" who spews blindness and misunderstanding all over that which they do not see and do not understand. Are their views truly so different from your own? Is your behavior any different than theirs? Here's the devil's advocate version of your statement, sky. I'm betting it looks awfully familiar: It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to believe in a UFO sighting. That is the nuttiest story I have ever heard. The person who wrote that book must have tin-foil over her type-writer because she is a loon. Thanks, for the input, BW.  I actually deleted the first comment that I made on this thread because I thought it was too sarcastic. The one I finally posted was my watered-down version of sarcasm.  I do agree that there are some lunatics in the UFO community. There are some UFO believers who are so far out there that there isn't an advanced alien race in the universe who could create the technology to bring them back. That's part of the reason why I made the comment that I made...to illustrate that there are extremists on both sides of the argument. This may come as a shock to a lot of people but I am actually a very big skeptic and I question everything that I hear. At the same time I also have an open mind and I personally believe that anything is possible. I think this puts me in a position to look at things from an objective point of view. It is usually logic and common sense that sways me one way or the other. I look at the evidence and then try to come to the most logical and sensible conclusion. As far as Roswell is concerned I still haven't made up my mind about it. It might be a crashed ET craft, or it might be something else. For all I know it might have been a weather balloon filled with swamp gas. However, this crazy Russian disc-shaped craft flown by deliberately mutilated children story does make any sense to me at all. For one thing, it is not supported by the evidence. In the weeks before the Roswell incident occurred there were many reports of people seeing disc-shaped objects flying through the American skies. Not just one, but in some cases 9, 10, or even more of them flying in unison. One German/Russian disc-shaped craft could not have caused all of those reports of multiple objects. There was also more than one reported crash site in the Roswell area. Could one German/Russian jet-powered craft splat itself in the desert and end up in two entirely different areas? Not likely. The main reason why I do not believe this crazy story is because it does not make any sense. Why would Stalin want to try to create a panic by sending over a phony flying saucer? What would be the purpose of it? Was he planning to invade the US if the people panicked? I seriously doubt it. And did he never consider that sooner or later the craft would be recovered by the United States government? What did he think would happen when we got our hands on it and found out about his diabolical little experiment? Another question I have is about why the so-called children were mutilated or modified at all? The story claims that the craft crashed accidentally which means that they apparently were not planning on exposing the occupants of the craft to the public, so why go through the elaborate scheme to modify them? And how could tiny little "children" fly a one of a kind jet-engined experimental craft that very few qualified pilots could even have flown? And if the purpose of such a craft was to panic the population of the US why was it flitting around in the least-populated and most isolated part of the country that it possibly could have found? Also, where was the support for such a craft? How did it get all the way to New Mexico without refueling? Jet-powered craft don't exactly have an unlimited cruising range, especially way back then. It would have had to land and refuel somewhere...probably several times in order to reach its eventual destination. Where did it land? How did it refuel? Why didn't anybody see it? How did the bodies of these mutated children survive the crash? When jet planes hit the ground there usually isn't much left to identify yet the reports from Roswell say the bodies were basically intact. Another question is about the description of the materials that were found at Roswell. People were talking about lightweight metal that could not be dented with a hammer or burned with a blow-torch, and other materials that would resume their original shape when folded or crumpled. Normal materials used to build jet aircraft do not have those properties. Normal metal is, well...normal. And why was there such a big cover up of this incident if it was only a crashed Russian plane? And why does the cover-up continue to this day? The Soviet Union no longer exists so there is no reason to maintain any Cold War secrets. Why hasn't the government made an official announcement about this silly German/Russian aircraft and it's "other-worldly" occupants? They haven't said a word about it even though they have admitted that the CIA and other branches of our intelligence department have conducted very inhumane and lethal experiments on unsuspecting American civilians. That is a heck of a lot worse than some Soviet experiment. What the government has done, however, is lie repeatedly about what happened out there. They first claimed that it was a weather balloon...then when the public didn't buy that they said it was a Skyhook observation balloon. Then it was a Skyhook balloon carrying plastic human-looking dummies...then a balloon carrying chimpanzees in space-suits. Now we hear this ridiculous story about a crashed Russian/German jet-powered disc-shaped plane with mutilated/modified child-sized pilots that sounds like something the nuttiest debunker of them all would come up with. And where did this story come from? People who supposedly worked at Area 51...a base that the government still refuses to acknowledge. If these people really did work at Area 51 than they are used to lying every day of their lives to their friends, family and acquantances...should we really expect them to tell the truth about their Super-duper Ultra-Top Secret activities to some outside reporter? Or is it possible that this is just one more in a long list of lies be put out by the government? Just the next phony story they came out with to try to convince the public that what crashed out there was not an extraterrestrial spacecraft. Considering that this story was "handed" to this journalist by a bunch of government employees I would say that it is highly probable that this is just more of the same old cover-up. What I find truly amazing is that anybody would actually believe such a ridiculous bunch of BS, which is why I posted my original sarcastic response. In order for any debunker to actually believe this rubbish they must be even nuttier than the nuttiest of the UFO nuts. I think people in both camps have a tendency to believe what they want to believe. |
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Post by Steve on May 26, 2011 21:02:35 GMT -6
Many annoying things here conflict with historical facts. Josef Mengele was one of Nazi Germany's most heinous Nazi war criminals. Mengele was a physician / Captain in the German SS. All Nazi's and Germans in general always hurried west to avoid being captured by the Soviets at the fall of Nazi Germany. Mengele was actually taken as prisoners of war by the Americans under the alias of a solder in the Wehrmacht. Mengele, initially registered under his own name, was released mistakenly by the Americans in June 1945 with papers giving his name as "Fritz Hollmann". From July 1945 until May 1949, he worked as a farmhand in a small village in Bavaria. There friends arranged him and his wife to escape to Argentina. Mengele may have been assisted by the ODESSA network The last place in the world Mengele would ever flee to was his blood & racial enemies the Soviet Union (Première Stalin). The Soviets would have loved to capture him..to kill him. A sworn enemy of 'the Soviet peoples'. The Soviets as Jacobsen states fabricated a "remotely controlled disc-shaped craft, with surgically altered children (Mengele) to appear as aliens to presumably frighten the Americans. What were aliens supposed to look like in 1947? The Soviets actually able to construct a disc shaped craft that can be flown and controlled? Why would they want to crew it with children - when a payload of cameras would be of better use? Was it intended then to crash? The 509th bomb group at Roswell? The Soviets already knew this. Why draw attention to themselves? Why would you want to? Sounds like some of the silly secret stuff a Chuck Reever/Chuck Modlin/Clifford Clift might dream up for Mufon. (their secret idea to pre-position specially equipped RV's with surveillance equipment and makeshift surgeries to remove aliens implants out in the desert somewhere from poor unsuspecting shumks). The real fascinating history by the Soviets during this period was their remarkable reverse engineering (most well know example in history) of the Boeing B-29 (Tupolev Tu-4) an extraordinary national accomplishment, leaping ahead several generations in aviation technology. And Jacobsen thinks they can just conjure up a flying saucer too while they were at it during this same time? see: www.wingsoverkansas.com/boyne/article.asp?id=1132en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4Jacobsen writes: "I researched and fact-checked everything that he told me in our interviews which took place over two years," Jacobsen said. "Everything he said checked out. I have no doubt of the veracity of the story and the reason why it's so explosive." Could it have ever occurred to Jacobsen that her 'sources' (they all knowing each other - part of a special group of men and women - having all taken security oaths for having known of or worked within Area 51, which like Camp David - still does not exist on any public map) be actually puling her leg for sport? Telling her everything she wanted to hear? This is getting to be a Ice cream headache. Impeccable credentials? Steve |
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Post by skywalker on May 26, 2011 21:15:04 GMT -6
I suspect a government disinfo campaign. They select a certain civilian writer, give her access to certain government people, feed her certain information and then let her run with the story. It's happened before. I'm not falling for it.
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Post by lois on May 26, 2011 21:25:24 GMT -6
I do not believe any of this ..
Thanks Steve for your input here.
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Post by lois on May 26, 2011 21:31:01 GMT -6
What I witness in 47 was no Russian saucer. The beings in the astronuat suits were small. They had to be the dome was not that high... I do not think they had a ship that could fly the ocean. That is absurd to me.
I agree with Lorelei
Lois
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2011 21:45:52 GMT -6
Sky... I really enjoyed reading your extended post. Good job with that one! Steve, thank you also for your historical input on this subject. If I knew more about history I also would have known that, but history was never my best subject in school. ;D |
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Post by bewildered on May 27, 2011 0:00:05 GMT -6
I think it's only an 'exercise' if others are playing ;D Quite right. |
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Post by bewildered on May 27, 2011 0:45:51 GMT -6
What I find truly amazing is that anybody would actually believe such a ridiculous bunch of BS, which is why I posted my original sarcastic response. In order for any debunker to actually believe this rubbish they must be even nuttier than the nuttiest of the UFO nuts. I think people in both camps have a tendency to believe what they want to believe. None of us are immune to (or beyond) believing what we want to believe, sky. I write about this very thing because I have seen it in my own self over and over again. I focus on the mind and how it works because in case anyone hasn't noticed, that is primarily what is under relentless assault virtually everywhere you turn. It's one meme after another, served up with insanity sauce. The effects of the attack are hypnotic and suggestive. This attack is a lie clothed in garments of some truth. This sprinkling of truth acts as the "hook" that one swallows. Once it is swallowed, you are caught by the angler. You really can't be certain of what is true or false in the media...you can only be certain that you are a target. Misinformation is a wretched thing. It can be disseminated purposefully or unknowingly - exactly how a virus is transmitted from one host to another. Misinformation proliferates all strata of human cognizance: what do you think advertising is? It is misinformation. Advertisers use archetypes calibrated to a target audience. Looking cool, appearing smart, feeling strong, believing you are important, healthy, attractive, and so forth are what they seek to manipulate in the target. The purveyors of illusion take this to a ridiculously absurd level: the target becomes a transmitter of their misinformation! Like a repeater in a radio network, a target dutifully continues to spread the disease that infects them to others. The end result is a pathological society such as what we all live in. Just so there is no mistaking what I mean, no society on Earth has been spared the effects of this scourge. I could level the blame entirely at those predators I have written about elsewhere, but that would be a mistake. They might be the architects of this plague that is killing us all...but they have had all too willing victims along the way. The primary battleground in this war is the mind. We are being destroyed from the inside. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 10:28:31 GMT -6
That's very well said Steve...and I agree with you...I never said that I believe her theory, as a matter of fact I don't. Did I say impeccable?? Actually what I was hinting at is that her book is possibly someone else's tool..for what ends (other than to further scatter opinion on UFO's) I couldn't say. Isn't the purpose of our forum to bring up material just like this..to examine it..and either accept it or dismiss it? To be honest enough to look at or listen to others opinions no matter how ridiculous they seem? I said she had amazing credentials and by the standard of some UFO reporters she does. She's not 'topic bound'..and writes on a number of subjects. Ok..she doesn't write for The Alien Observer (that's against her) most of her stuff ends up in the Times or National Geographic. I don't think she's been on coast to coast but she has been on CNN..maybe she could work up to Noory. I don't believe in the Russian hypothesis or the Nazi hypothesis but that still doesn't men we have to jump out there and believe every darned UFO story or account without questioning them. This is more on this theory and a couple of others..she isn't exactly alone in belief that Roswell was a hoax. www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Stalin--Mengele-plot-latest-theory-on-Roswell--UFO----- |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:44:19 GMT -6
Bewildered, I see the effects of advertising every day because I work in retail.
One example of this is the advertising of the product "Smart Water".
The advertising for "Smart Water" has convinced many many people that it is better for them than regular tap water because it is filtered through "Reverse Osmosis" and contains "Electrolites".
I have asked people when we were out of "Smart Water" if they wanted some Dasani instead. These customers often would say "No" and tell me it was because "Smart Water" was better for them. If they couldn't have "Smart Water" they would not drink any water at all.
I Would tell them, "You know, electrolytes are only salt and potassium. A diet cola contains electrolytes too you know..."
They would still argue with me though.
Idiots.
Just like those people who refuse to buy generic brand products. They are convinced that the more expensive products, "Advil" or "Motrin" for example, are better for them than the store brand of the same anti-inflammatory medication which is $2 less expensive.
I take store brand Ibuprofen all the time and I haven't died from it yet. I'm taking some right now actually. It also relieves the pain I have quite well. ~shrug~
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Post by skywalker on May 27, 2011 20:57:43 GMT -6
That's very well said Steve...and I agree with you...I never said that I believe her theory, as a matter of fact I don't. Did I say impeccable?? Actually what I was hinting at is that her book is possibly someone else's tool..for what ends (other than to further scatter opinion on UFO's) I couldn't say. I agree. I think the book is a tool to promote somebody else's agenda...probably the government and their disinformation machine. I think the author of it is probably a tool as well, although she may be a willing one, depending on what her own beliefs are. Yep, it definitely is, and I am glad you posted the story because it gives us something interesting to talk about. I like stories that generate lively discussions like this one. This is a very good topic, Jo. I think that her "amazing" credentials is one of the reasons why she was chosen to receive the info and write the book, because her credibility would bring more credibility to the story. I'm sure that skeptics all over the world are swallowing this one hook, line and sinker simply because of that fact. JJ is probably proposing to her right now. I'm not buying it though because disinformation is disinformation, no matter how it is packaged. Ms. Jacobsen, on the other hand, probably thinks she is on to the story of the century. I would like to see her and her merry band of skeptics counter some of the points that Steve and I raised. I agree with that totally. I don't believe every UFO story that comes along. I question everything, but that includes all of the skeptical debunker stories that come along also. This crazy Russian jet-powered disc being flown by mutilated children story just doesn't make any sense to me at all. It just doesn't fit with what I know about science and history...not just about Roswell and UFOs, but Soviet/German history also. Steve correctly pointed out that Mengele was considered an enemy by the Soviets. In fact, the Communists hated the Nazi socialists about as much as they hated the American capitalists. they would not have hesitated a second to have a man like Mengele executed, even if he would have been more use to them alive. Stalin was an extremely paranoid and power-hungry fanatic. He ordered the execution or imprisonment of the majority of officers in his own military, even though they were all extremely loyal to both Stalin and the USSR. He also would routinely persecute anybody who had travel led abroad or come into contact with any foreign citizens, even if it were in the course of their jobs, simply because he was so paranoid of spies and saboteurs. Stalin probably never would have allowed a man like Mengele to set foot in the country, and he probably would have executed any of his own soldiers and citizens who had come into contact with him. Stalin was a nut. |
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Post by bewildered on May 28, 2011 22:28:10 GMT -6
...I'm sure that skeptics all over the world are swallowing this one hook, line and sinker simply because of that fact. Not at all. I can disagree loudly with that assertion. What's your definition of a skeptic? Someone who utilizes critical thinking in reviewing whatever is passed before them? That is, the last time I checked anyway, the root definition of what such a person is. A skeptic questions and considers carefully. Perhaps your definition is something different than that, based on what you write. A skeptic would not uncritically accept that writer's story simply on merit alone. I certainly do not. Anecdotes are not evidence. They are merely a statement of someone's point of view, couched in persuasive clothing. It's quite easy to accept that human beings do unspeakable things to other human beings, yes...evidence abounds supporting that that passes critical analysis, no doubt. However, just because the writer uses that kernel of truth in some concoction such as what is found in that book does not mean someone who is honestly skeptical will embrace it with open arms. Someone's "credentials" mean diddly squat. What they are saying or doing is what a skeptic looks at. People lie every day, from paupers to kings: that's not an anecdote, just a verifiable fact. Not everyone fits in your brushstrokes. |
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Post by auntym on May 28, 2011 23:17:56 GMT -6
www.theufochronicles.com/2011/05/video-area-51-abc-news-interviews.htmlSaturday, May 28, 2011 VIDEO | AREA 51 | ABC News Interviews Jacobsen's Secret Source; is Latest Roswell Story Debunked? By Frank Warren The UFO Chronicles © 5-28-2011  ...  Unless you’ve been spelunking, (god forbid) in a coma, or de void of any and or all “news input,” undoubtedly you’ve heard of Annie Jacobsen’s new book: Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base (New York: Little, Brown & Co. 2011). It’s almost impossible to turn on the television, or peruse the net and not find some mention of her and her tome. In it, via her “last chapter,” she throws a wrench into the traditional “alien” Roswell crash scenario, claiming allegations from a undisclosed elderly source, with impeccable credentials; that “elements” of the Roswell story were indeed true; however, her source claims, that they were not aliens, but made to look like such, and this was all done for Machiavellian purposes–by no other then Russia, teamed up Nazi madman, Dr. Joseph Mengele. (Did I mention the book is NONFICTION?!) Jacobsen claims her source stated, that Mengele performed “unspeakable experimental surgical procedures, mostly on children, dwarfs and twins” and a select few of these unfortunates were chosen for a plan to induce another “War of The Worlds” type scare of 1938 on its soon to be cold-war enemy–the United States! . Furthermore, the alleged “alien craft” was in fact a “Horten brother’s flying disc,” claims the source, with the child mutant occupants inside and that it was flown thousands of miles by remote control to crash in New Mexico. UFO researchers and enthusiasts alike immediately condemned the book and its thesis for a host of reasons. Personally, for me I was intrigued by her witness(es) who reinforced what “Roswell witnesses” have stated along, e.g., exotic craft crashed, there were small childlike bodies with big heads, eye etc., and there was an immediately retrieval and post cover-up! ABC News, through their own investigation claims to have found Jacobsen’s “secret source,” (and they're not naming him either) and in interviewing him have uncovered some major discrepancies. Watch the video below:
TO WATCH VIDEO AND CONTINUE READING CLICK ON ABOVE LINK
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Post by skywalker on May 28, 2011 23:23:32 GMT -6
My definition of the word skeptic depends a lot on what type of skeptic I happen to be referring to at the time. I suppose I should have been a little more specific since I left it open to interpretation.
You are right, BW, in that being a skeptic does not necessarily preclude a person to blindly accept any negative theory that comes along. I happen to be a skeptic myself, as are you, Jo, Steve and a lot of other people. I think a certain degree of skepticism is good to have because it keeps us honest and makes us ask questions and search for the facts before we accept things.
At the other end of the spectrum are the rabid skeptics who start frothing at the mouth every time anybody even mentions the words UFO or alien. These are people who might also be considered to be debunkers, and these are the people I was thinking of when I was talking about skeptics earlier. Perhaps I should have just said debunker instead of skeptic. It's an old habit that I need to change.
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Post by Steve on May 28, 2011 23:47:16 GMT -6
That's very well said Steve...and I agree with you...I never said that I believe her theory, as a matter of fact I don't. Did I say impeccable?? Actually what I was hinting at is that her book is possibly someone else's tool..for what ends (other than to further scatter opinion on UFO's) I couldn't say. Isn't the purpose of our forum to bring up material just like this..to examine it..and either accept it or dismiss it? To be honest enough to look at or listen to others opinions no matter how ridiculous they seem? I said she had amazing credentials and by the standard of some UFO reporters she does. She's not 'topic bound'..and writes on a number of subjects. Ok..she doesn't write for The Alien Observer (that's against her) most of her stuff ends up in the Times or National Geographic. I don't think she's been on coast to coast but she has been on CNN..maybe she could work up to Noory. I don't believe in the Russian hypothesis or the Nazi hypothesis but that still doesn't men we have to jump out there and believe every darned UFO story or account without questioning them. This is more on this theory and a couple of others..she isn't exactly alone in belief that Roswell was a hoax. www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Stalin--Mengele-plot-latest-theory-on-Roswell--UFO----- Hi Jokelly, I much appreciate you bringing up Jacobsen's new book Jo. You are always at the forefront here in bringing to the surface new information and facts objectively. To not raise awareness of her book would be remiss of us here at TEOR. Especially since it is receiving attention around other websites I imagine. Jacobsen is to be on Coast to Coast too. So we would be behind the times not to discuss it here as well. Jacobsen is scheduled to be a guest on Coast to Coast May 29th, 2011. I just disagree with Jacobsen's premise. Lets just say - if the Soviets could create and operate a craft we might recognize as a UFO /ET flying object (and represent a technology that could also operate in space too?), there would be no need to recon Roswell, or frighten American officials, or even bother to later go to any effort to launch Sputnik in 1957, or put Gagarin into orbit in 1961. Conceivably such a Soviet UFO would represent such a huge revolutionary advance in technology - it would mean the Soviets would be holding all the cards already. Such technology in possession of the Soviets would have created such an imbalance, America would have lost the Cold War long ago. The above reference to the Horten Brothers building a flying disk is totally inaccurate. The Horten brothers built and tested flying wings, culminating in the Horten HO 229, never a flying disk. The Horton aircraft - if appearing unconventional, still flew in conventional ways. Much of the HO 229 structure was primarily of veneer plywood. Not the exotic 'memory metal' often mentioned about the alleged Roswell craft debris. Any Roswell debris found - if you follow Jacobsens premise - would be easily & quickly recognized by any Northrop aeronautical engineer, since Northrop had been working on flying wing designs longer than even the Horton brothers, which Northrop was already well aware of. Scare Americans? Here is film (footage taken in 1947 too) of Northrop's own 8 jet engined YB-49 Flying wing prototype intercontental bomber (like the Horton in concept - but much much larger). If you believe Jacobsen then - who would be scaring who here?) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/ho_ix/body_ho_ix.htmlwww.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/evolution%20of%20technology/horten.htmJacobsen must grossly twist facts to sell her really unsupportable historical premise. Jacobsen could find just as many people who agree about other things too. Sorry if I seem to be playing with my food about the Jacobsen Roswell book, but IMO, Jacobsen is asking for it. Steve |
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Post by skywalker on May 28, 2011 23:54:49 GMT -6
Even the news reporter in the article that auntym just posted disagrees with her. He claimed that her elderly witness was delusional and her book was filled with inconsistencies, yet she still stands behind what she wrote.
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Post by bewildered on May 29, 2011 11:09:23 GMT -6
My definition of the word skeptic depends a lot on what type of skeptic I happen to be referring to at the time. I suppose I should have been a little more specific since I left it open to interpretation. You are right, BW, in that being a skeptic does not necessarily preclude a person to blindly accept any negative theory that comes along. I happen to be a skeptic myself, as are you, Jo, Steve and a lot of other people. I think a certain degree of skepticism is good to have because it keeps us honest and makes us ask questions and search for the facts before we accept things. At the other end of the spectrum are the rabid skeptics who start frothing at the mouth every time anybody even mentions the words UFO or alien. These are people who might also be considered to be debunkers, and these are the people I was thinking of when I was talking about skeptics earlier. Perhaps I should have just said debunker instead of skeptic. It's an old habit that I need to change. A skeptic neither accepts nor rejects - it is understood that virtually anything is possible in reality. While anything is possible, it does not mean that everything is possible. That is the restraint one exercises - it's a tool in the skeptical arsenal of counteracting the tendency we have to view things through filters and lenses. I suppose you could say that skepticism begins - and ends - with the self. You don't concern yourself with the actions of others. You focus primarily on the control of your own self that you might see more clearly and accurately. It's all too easy to fall under the influence of another through manipulation and coercion when you are distracted. We have a tendency to classify things as objects - so and so is a debunker, he or she is a believer, they are a good guy, that one is a bad person, etc - and therein lies the mechanism of those filters I mention above. It's a mental shortcut we employ to establish a comfortable order to what we perceive, and it's a flaw that's taken advantage of by the opportunistic. Make no mistake, our conscious craves comfortable order...to the point of blinding itself if that's what it has to do. When we establish absolutes like those, we only tend to see in absolutes, and that blinds us to the infinite permutations of probability that constitute reality. Like John Keel, I came to the conclusion that the common denominator in all experience - be it a ride on a ferris wheel or an encounter with a UFO - is the one experiencing. In other words, it's not the UFO, the ferris wheel, nor the amusement park. It's us. Something is going on with our minds. When I started to explore the mind and learn how it works, I was shocked. |
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Post by auntym on May 29, 2011 14:42:35 GMT -6
www.theufochronicles.com/2011/05/video-area-51-abc-news-says-jacobsen.htmlSunday, May 29, 2011 VIDEO | AREA 51 | ABC News Says Jacobsen Source is 'Confused & Conflicted"; The Author Gets Grilled By Nightline's Bill Weir By Frank Warren The UFO Chronicles © 5-29-2011  We left off with announcing the fact that ABC News, specifically, Nightline and co-anchor Bill Weir located Annie Jacobsen’s primary (un-named) source for her chapter on the Roswell crash in her controversial (to put it mildly) tome: Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base (New York: Little, Brown & Co. 2011). After spending some time with the almost 90-year-old former technician for EG&G, at his home in Nevada, Weir came away with not only some discrepancies, but also an opinion of his mental capacity–pertaining to his age. Armed with this information, Weir asked and was granted a second interview with Jacobsen and it was a “no hold’s barred” session. The underlying innuendo, at worst was perhaps Jacobsen embellished her version of the Roswell saga (via her “un-named source), creating controversy to pump up book sales; or she, at best was/is incompetent and didn’t vet the source and or his claims properly, which in part may have been overlooking “elder dementia” as Weir alludes to. TO WATCH VIDEO & CONTINUE READING CLICK ON ABOVE LINK
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Post by auntym on May 29, 2011 14:49:15 GMT -6
this book and standing firm on what she wrote could be annie jacobsen's 'swan song'....
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Post by auntym on May 29, 2011 15:02:12 GMT -6
www.theufochronicles.com/2011/05/area-51-book-exposed-secret-source.htmlSunday, May 29, 2011 Area 51| Book Exposed: Secret Source Revealed with Interview  By Anthony Bragalia The Bragalia Files 5-27-11 Annie Jacobsen’s recently released bestseller Area 51 has stirred global interest. She has been featured numerous times on many networks and websites. Her book was reviewed last week by the New York Times. Jacobsen’s biggest “scoop” concerns the Roswell crash. She learned from an early executive of one of our nation’s largest defense contractors that the Roswell crash of 1947 was resultant from a scheme by Russia’s Josef Stalin and escaped Nazi mad-scientist Josef Mengele to “hoax” the Americans by staging UFO sightings. The plan was to induce panic and psychological warfare in the manner of the Orson Welles War of the World broadcast aftermath. They would launch unusually-designed craft from a “mothership” (located near Alaska.) These were single-wing, remote-controlled “UFOs” with “alien-like” children on board. The craft were of Nazi German design (captured by the Soviets at the close of the War) and the “aliens” were actually 13 year olds. The grotesque child aviators were biologically engineered by Mengele with strange large heads and oddly spaced eyes. The craft and pilots had crashed near Roswell in July of 1947 and were flown to Wright Field. In 1951, Jacobsen’s source maintains, the crashed vehicle and the two still-surviving deformed children were taken to Area 51 and to the facilities of defense contractor EG&G (now URS Corporation) This author has identified and located Annie Jacobsen’s anonymous source. I have also decided, after much consideration, to “out” him. In this article I will openly name him. I have also contacted him very recently. He reluctantly spoke with me for some time. I believe that the source was indeed told this bizarre story by officials. But just why this is so will stun readers, and is not for the reasons that you may think. JACOBSEN’S SOURCE NAMED Ms. Jacobsen’s source about this Roswell story is unnamed by her in the blockbuster book. He wanted to remain anonymous. Annie Jacobsen kept her promise. I did not learn her source from her or from anyone associated with her publishing company. His identity and his background is revealed here and now:
Alfred O’Donnell is nearly 89 years old and he is one of Annie Jacobsen’s key sources about this Roswell crash story “interpretation.” O’Donnell is indeed exactly who he claims to have been. In the early 1950’s he was at the “Nevada Test Site” where atomic bombs were tested regularly. O’Donnell was indeed part of the nucleus of top management and engineers for EG&G- one of our nation’s top defense contractors. Founded as Edgerton, Germeshausen and Grier (EG&G) the company was acquired by URS Corporation some years ago. URS employs over 50,000 and is the leading designer and builder of federal classified facilities in the United States. They work with military as well as with the Intelligence Community (particularly the NSA) in constructing and operating some of our nation’s most sensitive and secret facilities.
TO CONTINUE READING CLICK ON ABOVE LINK
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