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Post by bewildered on May 17, 2013 18:43:03 GMT -6
Since this is a topic of great interest to me, I felt I would start a thread about the indigenous people of North America independent of other threads on the forum. I regret veering off-topic in the "North Korea" thread - emotional issues have a tendency to assert dominance in discussions, whether they are face-to-face or in a medium such as this - and so I would think that anything having to do with the historical significance of what happened during the European expansion into North America would best be served by this thread.
I've devoted a fair amount of time combing the university library, the National Archives, as well as connecting with Native American scholars on this charged issue, so you might say that I possess a comprehensive (but not "authoritative" or "expert" by any stretch) understanding of the complexities of what happened to the first dwellers in the past 400 years of our history. I think it's important to point out to everyone that I do not think that the average European settler wanted to enslave or wipe out the Native American tribes they encountered in America.
The real differences between the white settlers and American Indians were cultural, not racial. There is also the very real factor of disease: the European colonists brought maladies along with them that Native Americans had no ability to resist, so what was nothing to Dutch settlers (childhood diseases they developed immunities to) often proved fatal to Native American people. This was not intentional; it was a consequence of contact.
The only true, clear-cut historical examples of gross mistreatment of Native Americans are found in dealings between the United States government and the First Nations. You might be surprised to learn that these atrocities are understood, admitted, and chronicled in the National Archives as well as on the website of the State Department's Office of the Historian. I think most of us understand the difference between politics and the "average person."
Politics can be a disgusting thing. It can lead governments to do illegal, unethical things in the name of "national interest." When you understand that the U.S. government did what it did to the Native American tribes in the interest of expanding and developing a young America, you can see how what happened had both positive and negative elements. Was it wrong? Yes, I think it was. Why?
There really was no need to displace the First Nations. The First Nations were comprised mostly of the most culturally advanced Native American tribes, and as a whole they wanted to share their land with American settlers. The cultural differences between them and those in positions of power within the American government conspired to make events like the Trail of Tears possible. I'll share some of things I've learned about the Trail of Tears in another post. I think most of us here would have been horrified if we lived during that time, and witnessed the Cherokee forced at gunpoint to walk almost two thousand miles cross country to a new home established especially for them. Thousands of them died along the way.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2013 21:18:07 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure I heard it told that my grandmother was part Cherokee or Comanche. It's something I need to look into. I've always appreciated the way Indians lived. They didn't destroy the land, instead , they helped it. They did controlled burns. They took the weaker buffalo and other animals they hunted to keep the stronger within the heard. They didn't waste. They used every part of the animal they hunted for various reasons. They grew gardens and hoed the land by hand. One particular thing they did that really fascinates me is the aerodynamics in the arrowheads they made. Has anyone ever noticed what they are shaped like ? I wonder where they first got the idea from. Some have twists causing them to spin. Their drills were really cool. The atlantel is one of the most amazing hunting tools even to this date,Imho. I've always wanted to learn how to throw one. It's all in the wrist, mainly, as described to me anyway. It is deadly accurate, flies quicker and farther than the bow and arrow from what I was told. Their baskets, pottery, quilts, tools, were made with artistry. Some have petroglyphs of running water, deer, trees, teepees, and other writings. I have seen these drawings on the sides of mountains and cliffs also. There are places where they are where only some of us know about, and I'll take it to my grave so that they wont be disturbed. That goes for many burial sites I know of where mounds are present deep in the country. Another thing that can be said is that no matter where Indians lived, there were no landfills trashing and polluting the landscape. When I attended school in Arizona in 6th grade I learned a (Paiute I believe) Indian rain song. I cannot spell it but I know how the words to it are pronounced. It truly , honestly, and amazingly works ! When I hosted a business in Nevada the guys would shout " Cliff, do the rain dance". ;D This is true and has happened on several occasions. Out of nowhere in the dry Las Vegas desert there wouldn't be a single cloud in the sky or forecasted but I would start singing it and within about an hour clouds would start forming around Redrock/Mt. Charleston and then come into the valley. We would have to close down because of the rain because it was a Car Wash that I managed and hosted for several of my younger working years. ;D Every now and then, working 7 days a week, it was nice to get at least half a day off. ;D Coincidence ? Maybe. I'll attempt to try and spell it out how it sounds but please don't quote me on this as being accurate. - NI-YA-WAH-HE-KA or... (N-EYE- YAW - WAH- HEE - CAW) There are times when I wished I would have lived back in the days that the Indians did. I think it would have been awesome, at least much of the time. It would make a person appreciate more today what we have now if we could live for even a short duration of time surviving off the land without modern amenities.
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Post by lois on May 17, 2013 22:29:44 GMT -6
bewildered I use to live in Cape Girardeau.. Mo. The trail of tears park is a beautiful place despite all the horror that happen there. I took photos of a chiefs daughters grave. Supposedly she gave her blanket to a child that night as they had just crossed the Mighty Mississippi . Many drowned in that icy river. While others froze to death later. This princess .. I have forgotten her name gave her life to save this child. I bet I visited this place 50 times in the duration of time I lived there. When family and friends came from out of state we would take them up there. I will never know how they got all the way to the top of those limestone bluffs over looking the water ... and their bodies were so weak by the time they reached that river. Spirit and determination I'm sure. .. so sad..
My husband always loved Ben Johnson the actor. Years ago we watched a program with him speaking on the turner classic movie channel. He told how his Grandmother I believe was one who walked the trail of tears. All those years watching him with John Wayne. It was a very nice interview..There is a small museum there that the county built. Of course only one event took place here.
You are on one of my favorite topics here. Will be looking forward to more post. I have a collection of books on Native Americans that I found and read down through the years..
Have you read the Vanishing Race? One published in 1913 I believe of course my copy is from the 30's and pretty worn. I cried most all the way through it. I believe the reporter who wrote it was being truthful It may be full of lies. But he took notes at a pow wow as each Chief spoke. It was in 1913.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 0:42:50 GMT -6
lois: No, I haven't heard of that book. While a great number of the original dwellers died, they fortunately did not "vanish" from the earth. They're still with us, and in a twist of irony, are members of society today. Quite a few of us have Native American ancestry, too. They live on, and their culture and heritage have survived. @cliff: I used to walk in the woods adjacent to my uncle's property in rural New England back during the 1970s. I would find arrowheads in the ground and the undergrowth, and encountered the remnants of old territorial markers around creeks and close to large hills. That was very old country, untouched by suburbia and urban sprawl. Those woods had a certain power about them, and according to some of the older family friends, it was a common meeting ground of Indians and fur traders. There was a positively ancient wood shack several miles into the woods, and while my cousins and I weren't "allowed" to stray that far, we went there on a few occasions just to look at the place. It was overgrown with moss and vegetation, and from what I've been able to learn about it since, it was a hunter's cabin dating from the late 18th century.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 14:18:59 GMT -6
I think it's important to point out to everyone that I do not think that the average European settler wanted to enslave or wipe out the Native American tribes they encountered in America. ;D We all know the "stories" of how someone thought they were reaching India and establishing a new way to get there. Of course I don't entirely believe this as who, in their right mind (no matter how many ships and supplies), would sail blindly into the ocean? We now know there is more to it, but the name "Indian" stuck. We are learning more and more about North American history all the time (as long as it isn't suppressed). The Native peoples had enemies here (besides possibly new illnesses) most likely before the European settlers came. If anything, some of them welcomed the white man and looked forward to his/her help. Though I believe that the Native American life was full of much joy, I also believe that there was great hardship. Just think what we could have done for each other! I am so thankful that some of my ancestors obviously chose "slavery" or displacement (surrender) over death. Some of them did not have a choice, or were tricked. This is how these things go. I don't believe that there is any way the "Indian" could have hid forever from the white man, without some of the white man's help. Assimilation works both ways, of course. I use "white man" for lack of better term.
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 14:51:17 GMT -6
A few years back Kevin Cosner hosted a documentary called 500 nations . I taped it each week . I cannot read well anymore and this I can at least listen to. I don't know how accurate it is but if anyone is interested in it, they can find the complete series on u-tube right now.
Opening week part one..
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 17:38:21 GMT -6
jcurio: I haven't found any information that would lead me to think that the indigenous people of North America "needed" anyone to displace them from their ancestral lands nor teach them "better" ways to live their lives. From a social and cultural standpoint, many tribes were arguably more evolved and egalitarian than the societies of their European counterparts. Females were the equals of males in many tribal societies, and during the pre-contact period, there were cases of women marrying women in some of them. Anthropologists have identified a "third" gender role in some tribal societies where men would be women and women would be men. (here's a book that studies that phenomenon as well as others, posted on the internet in .pdf format: williamapercy.com/wiki/images/Sexuality_and_Gender.pdf) A central concept of tribal life was the communal ownership of land by the tribe, a factor which stands in stark contrast to the paradigm of private property ownership in Europe. There were no Native American "homeless" people, nor beggars or a "lower class." Food that was hunted, gathered, and harvested from crops fed everyone. These were strange practices to the Europeans, who sometimes denounced the native's way of life as "ungodly." I'm not sure why you don't accept what Columbus himself wrote, and how that is collaborated by others during his time period. Columbus thought that the land he encountered in the eastern Caribbean (Cuba) was in fact the eastern coast of Asia. Navigators of the time thought that East Asia was very close to Spain (a belief that Columbus apparently never abandoned). The Smithsonian magazine has a decent article about that here: www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Presence-of-Mind-A-World-Too-New.htmlThis begs the question: who or what is suppressing it, and why? Of course, it goes without saying that the indigenous people faced perils long before the contact period of the modern age. They sometimes fought wars among themselves, a characteristic that is depressingly common in the human species. However, there is no evidence to indicate that they faced a problem quite like the invasion of Europe during the monarchial period. You're thankful that Native Americans were forced to survive under such horrific conditions? That some survived is patently obvious...but how is the invasion of their ancestral lands, the genocide of their people, the slavery of their children, and the systematic eradication of their culture as hostages of a white supremacist invader culture a "good thing?" It happened, and some tribes managed to survive the ruin of their once vibrant civilization. That's just a fact. But this is precisely how the lessons of history are ignored, jcurio, and how similar mistakes are eventually made again. By romanticizing, rationalizing, and justifying the death of millions of Native Americans you join other Americans in a collective national blindness.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 18:04:55 GMT -6
It's rather revealing that the ancient Norse, who discovered the landmass of North America in the 10th century (almost four hundred years before the Portuguese, Spanish, and Italians did), didn't colonize the land nor attempt to enslave the Native American people they encountered. Artifacts recovered from an archeological site in New England (an 11th century Scandanavian coin) indicate that some form of trade occurred between the Norse and the Americans.
I've already posted about this elsewhere, and provided a link that offers more information about it. People either ignore what I write, or possibly can't be bothered to learn more on the subject. This is pretty typical behavior. Instead of researching information that helps you form an opinion, you start off with a position and then seek data to support it. When you fail to locate corroborating evidence, you don't even bother to cite a source (ala randy).
As is the case with this topic of discussion, many people really don't understand why they believe what they believe, only that they believe it. Welcome to America.
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 18:20:36 GMT -6
A few years back Kevin Cosner hosted a documentary called 500 nations . I taped it each week . I cannot read well anymore and this I can at least listen to. I don't know how accurate it is but if anyone is interested in it, they can find the complete series on u-tube right now. Opening week part one.. nice find lois... i'll watch it later...
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 18:46:11 GMT -6
It's rather revealing that the ancient Norse, who discovered the landmass of North America in the 10th century (almost four hundred years before the Portuguese, Spanish, and Italians did), didn't colonize the land nor attempt to enslave the Native American people they encountered. Artifacts recovered from an archeological site in New England (an 11th century Scandanavian coin) indicate that some form of trade occurred between the Norse and the Americans. I've already posted about this elsewhere, and provided a link that offers more information about it. People either ignore what I write, or possibly can't be bothered to learn more on the subject. This is pretty typical behavior. Instead of researching information that helps you form an opinion, you start off with a position and then seek data to support it. When you fail to locate corroborating evidence, you don't even bother to cite a source (ala randy). As is the case with this topic of discussion, many people really don't understand why they believe what they believe, only that they believe it. Welcome to America. i have a humorous story about who really discovered america... when i was in the 3rd or 4th grade... the teacher asked the class "who discovered america?" i raised my hand and said "the irish discovered america!" the teacher just looked at me, and said "no, they didn't" and called on someone else... well, needless to say my feelings were hurt and i went home and told my dad (he's the one who informed me about the irish & america) about what happened in class... 20 or 30 years later i was watching jeopardy on tv and the question was "who was the first to land in america" ... well to remain loyal to my dad i shouted out "the irish" and the correct answer was the irish, although all the countries claimed that title since they all were there before columbus... to this day i still don't know who did and who didn't... columbus is the one who is credited with it and thats the way the history books are written... i always thought AMERICUS VESPUCCI (i think thats spelled right) stole the thunder from columbus...when they named the new land after him... oh well... and how did it end up being an english colony instead of an italian or spanish one? these are questions that sometimes enter my brain when i can't sleep... LOL... no wonder i have trouble sleeping...
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 18:53:04 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing that film, Lois. I also want to thank you for caring about the truth. You're a good lady.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 18:58:49 GMT -6
It's rather revealing that the ancient Norse, who discovered the landmass of North America in the 10th century (almost four hundred years before the Portuguese, Spanish, and Italians did), didn't colonize the land nor attempt to enslave the Native American people they encountered. Artifacts recovered from an archeological site in New England (an 11th century Scandanavian coin) indicate that some form of trade occurred between the Norse and the Americans. I've already posted about this elsewhere, and provided a link that offers more information about it. People either ignore what I write, or possibly can't be bothered to learn more on the subject. This is pretty typical behavior. Instead of researching information that helps you form an opinion, you start off with a position and then seek data to support it. When you fail to locate corroborating evidence, you don't even bother to cite a source (ala randy). As is the case with this topic of discussion, many people really don't understand why they believe what they believe, only that they believe it. Welcome to America. i have a humorous story about who really discovered america... when i was in the 3rd or 4th grade... the teacher asked the class "who discovered america?" i raised my hand and said "the irish discovered america!" the teacher just looked at me, and said "no, they didn't" and called on someone else... well, needless to say my feelings were hurt and i went home and told my dad (he's the one who informed me about the irish & america) about what happened in class... 20 or 30 years later i was watching jeopardy on tv and the question was "who was the first to land in america" ... well to remain loyal to my dad i shouted out "the irish" and the correct answer was the irish, although all the countries claimed that title since they all were there before columbus... to this day i still don't know who did and who didn't... columbus is the one who is credited with it and thats the way the history books are written... i always thought AMERICUS VESPUCCI (i think thats spelled right) stole the thunder from columbus...when they named the new land after him... oh well... and how did it end up being an english colony instead of an italian or spanish one? these are questions that sometimes enter my brain when i can't sleep... LOL... no wonder i have trouble sleeping... Perhaps you've encountered this somewhere on the internet before, auntym (or something like it, at any rate): Also:
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 19:09:03 GMT -6
i have a humorous story about who really discovered america... when i was in the 3rd or 4th grade... the teacher asked the class "who discovered america?" i raised my hand and said "the irish discovered america!" the teacher just looked at me, and said "no, they didn't" and called on someone else... well, needless to say my feelings were hurt and i went home and told my dad (he's the one who informed me about the irish & america) about what happened in class... 20 or 30 years later i was watching jeopardy on tv and the question was "who was the first to land in america" ... well to remain loyal to my dad i shouted out "the irish" and the correct answer was the irish, although all the countries claimed that title since they all were there before columbus... to this day i still don't know who did and who didn't... columbus is the one who is credited with it and thats the way the history books are written... i always thought AMERICUS VESPUCCI (i think thats spelled right) stole the thunder from columbus...when they named the new land after him... oh well... and how did it end up being an english colony instead of an italian or spanish one? these are questions that sometimes enter my brain when i can't sleep... LOL... no wonder i have trouble sleeping... Perhaps you've encountered this somewhere on the internet before, auntym (or something like it, at any rate): yes, i have... and it breaks my heart... my sympathies have always been with the american indians... (i think i might have been an indian in a previous life) this irish lady always cheered for the indians in all the old westerns... when i was growing up all my friends wanted to marry the lone ranger... not me... i only had eyes for tonto...
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 19:17:57 GMT -6
oh, ok... i see what you're trying to say... and you are right...
we are the illegal aliens ...
this is the indians native land... not ours... everybody has roots in other countries...except the indians... their roots are here...
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 19:18:42 GMT -6
Human habitation of North America occurred much earlier than scientists originally thought several decades ago. As evidence continues to be discovered and analyzed, an emerging consensus is being reached that humans migrated to the Americas in waves over the course of 50,000 years. An excerpt of an article from ScienceDaily.com: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years AgoNov. 18, 2004 — Radiocarbon tests of carbonized plant remains where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by University of South Carolina archaeologist Dr. Albert Goodyear indicate that the sediments containing these artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last ice age.
The findings are significant because they suggest that humans inhabited North America well before the last ice age more than 20,000 years ago, a potentially explosive revelation in American archaeology.
Goodyear, who has garnered international attention for his discoveries of tools that pre-date what is believed to be humans' arrival in North America, announced the test results, which were done by the University of California at Irvine Laboratory, Wednesday (Nov .17).
"The dates could actually be older," Goodyear says. "Fifty-thousand should be a minimum age since there may be little detectable activity left."
The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man's migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.
"Topper is the oldest radiocarbon dated site in North America," Goodyear says. "However, other early sites in Brazil and Chile, as well as a site in Oklahoma also suggest that humans were in the Western Hemisphere as early as 30,000 years ago to perhaps 60,000."More from the same article: "In October 2005, archaeologists will meet in Columbia for a conference on Clovis and the study of earliest Americans. The conference will include a day trip to Topper, which is sure to dominate discussions and presentations at the international gathering. USC's Topper: A Timeline
May, 1998 — Dr. Al Goodyear and his team dig up to a meter below the Clovis level and encounter unusual stone tools up to two meters below surface.
May 1999 — Team of outside geologists led by Mike Waters, a researcher at Texas A&M, visit Topper site and propose a thorough geological study of locality.
May 2000 — Geology study done by consultants; ice age soil confirmed for pre-Clovis artifacts.
May 2001 — Geologists revisit Topper and obtain ancient plant remains deep down in the Pleistocene terrace. OSL (optically stimulated luminescence) dates on soils above ice age strata show pre-Clovis is at least older than 14,000.
May 2002 — Geologists find new profile showing ancient soil lying between Clovis and pre-Clovis, confirming the age of ice age soils between 16,000 - 20,000 years.
May 2003 — Archaeologists continue to excavate pre-Clovis artifacts above the terrace, as well as new, significant Clovis finds.
May 2004 — Using backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear and his team dig deeper, down into the Pleistocene terrace, some 4 meters below the ground surface. Artifacts, similar to pre-Clovis forms excavated in previous years, recovered deep in the terrace. A black stain in the soil provides charcoal for radio carbon dating.
November 2004 — Radiocarbon dating report indicates that artifacts excavated from Pleistocene terrace in May were recovered from soil that dates some 50,000 years. The dates imply an even earlier arrival for humans in this hemisphere than previously believed, well before the last ice age."View the original article at the following link: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041118104010.htm
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 19:21:28 GMT -6
oh, ok... i see what you're trying to say... and you are right... we are the illegal aliens ... this is the indians native land... not ours... everybody has roots in other countries...except the indians... their roots are here... No, of course not. The Native Americans arrived here an awfully long time ago from elsewhere, so they were immigrants, too. I was just being humorous. Humor should challenge the way people think. What's an "illegal alien?" Technically, we are the illegal aliens, but seriously: Native Americans had no problems sharing the land with our ancestors. The problem is, the U.S. government didn't want to share that land with them.
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 19:46:31 GMT -6
oh, ok... i see what you're trying to say... and you are right... we are the illegal aliens ... this is the indians native land... not ours... everybody has roots in other countries...except the indians... their roots are here... No, of course not. The Native Americans arrived here an awfully long time ago from elsewhere, so they were immigrants, too. I was just being humorous. Humor should challenge the way people think. What's an "illegal alien?" Technically, we are the illegal aliens, but seriously: Native Americans had no problems sharing the land with our ancestors. The problem is, the U.S. government didn't want to share that land with them. my husband grew up in western new york... about 20 yrs ago we traveled there to visit relatives... while there we visited a SENECA NATION town called SALAMANCA, NEW YORK... it is billed as "the only city in the united states built entirely on an indian reservation" ... if my memory is remembering correctly... we were there at a time when the indians wanted the white people to pay taxes on there property inside the reservation... and some of the white people were refusing because they bought their house & land around it and this was not part of the sales contract when they bought their house... the indians claimed they had a right to confiscate everything if they did not pay their taxes... i think it was going to a higher court... this is where i have to end the story because we went back home a week later... so i never got to hear the end of the story...i'm sure it must be on the internet somewhere... i never thought about it again until just now... sorry... i do remember laughing about it when it happened and felt the white home owners should pay the taxes which wasn't alot... do you know anything about this?....
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 19:50:01 GMT -6
It's rather revealing that the ancient Norse, who discovered the landmass of North America in the 10th century (almost four hundred years before the Portuguese, Spanish, and Italians did), didn't colonize the land nor attempt to enslave the Native American people they encountered. Artifacts recovered from an archeological site in New England (an 11th century Scandanavian coin) indicate that some form of trade occurred between the Norse and the Americans. I've already posted about this elsewhere, and provided a link that offers more information about it. People either ignore what I write, or possibly can't be bothered to learn more on the subject. This is pretty typical behavior. Instead of researching information that helps you form an opinion, you start off with a position and then seek data to support it. When you fail to locate corroborating evidence, you don't even bother to cite a source (ala randy). As is the case with this topic of discussion, many people really don't understand why they believe what they believe, only that they believe it. Welcome to America. i have a humorous story about who really discovered america... when i was in the 3rd or 4th grade... the teacher asked the class "who discovered america?" i raised my hand and said "the irish discovered america!" the teacher just looked at me, and said "no, they didn't" and called on someone else... well, needless to say my feelings were hurt and i went home and told my dad (he's the one who informed me about the irish & america) about what happened in class... 20 or 30 years later i was watching jeopardy on tv and the question was "who was the first to land in america" ... well to remain loyal to my dad i shouted out "the irish" and the correct answer was the irish, although all the countries claimed that title since they all were there before columbus... to this day i still don't know who did and who didn't... columbus is the one who is credited with it and thats the way the history books are written... i always thought AMERICUS VESPUCCI (i think thats spelled right) stole the thunder from columbus...when they named the new land after him... oh well... and how did it end up being an english colony instead of an italian or spanish one? these are questions that sometimes enter my brain when i can't sleep... LOL... no wonder i have trouble sleeping... In the 19th century, a number of scholars began recording the Icelandic sagas and studying them academically. It was at this time that the notion of "Vinland" began to be encountered. What was Vinland? We know that Nordic explorers sailed the North Atlantic and established a colony in Greenland. But did they also reach mainland North America? According to the sagas, they did. Later in the 20th century, a number of archeological digs discovered Norse artifacts (rune stones) along the coast of Canada, indicating that Scandinavians sailed to Newfoundland and the mainland. Not too long ago, a dig site in Maine unearthed an 11th century Scandinavian coin (they also discovered fabrics that appeared to be Norse in origin). This corroborates the Icelandic sagas that the Norse encountered Native American tribes and traded with them. They appear to have visited Vinland over the course of 400 years in order to acquire timber.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 20:03:55 GMT -6
my husband grew up in western new york... about 20 yrs ago we traveled there to visit relatives... while there we visited a SENECA NATION town called SALAMANCA, NEW YORK... it is billed as "the only city in the united states built entirely on an indian reservation" ... if my memory is remembering correctly... we were there at a time when the indians wanted the white people to pay taxes on there property inside the reservation... and some of the white people were refusing because they bought their house & land around it and this was not part of the sales contract when they bought their house... the indians claimed they had a right to confiscate everything if they did not pay their taxes... i think it was going to a higher court... this is where i have to end the story because we went back home a week later... so i never got to hear the end of the story...i'm sure it must be on the internet somewhere... i never thought about it again until just now... sorry... i do remember laughing about it when it happened and felt the white home owners should pay the taxes which wasn't alot... do you know anything about this?.... I found a reference to this in a Wikipedia article about the Seneca Nation. Here's a bit from the article: Relationship with non-Senecas"The relationship between the Seneca Nation and the surrounding population has been contentious, both in regard to excise tax advantages and in regard to property rights. In the 1990s, the Senecas won a prolonged court battle to assume ownership of all land on their reservation, including that owned by private non-Senecas, and demanded the previous owners all sign leases with the nation or be evicted.[7] In 2012, the Senecas ordered a mass eviction of eighty residents of Snyder Beach on the Cattaraugus Reservation, deeming their presence a long-standing "illegal occupation" View the entire article here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Nation_of_New_YorkIn 1832, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Native American tribal nations were to be considered sovereign national entities in a relationship with the United States of America. This meant that they were protected from any unlawful encroachment of their lands, and also entitled to be protected against government efforts to evict them. Sadly, this had little effect back then, but it does apply now in more modern days. More about that here: Worcester v. Georgia (1832): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia
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Post by auntym on May 18, 2013 20:08:41 GMT -6
WOW... they evicted them... thats interesting... i always thought it would end more peacefully...
thanks bewildered...
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 20:19:34 GMT -6
WOW... they evicted them... thats interesting... i always thought it would end more peacefully... thanks bewildered... I imagine it would have, but then look at the world we live in. It's insane.
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 20:34:29 GMT -6
Thank you for that last link.. I do know there were tribal wars before European landed here. How far back in history I do not know. The Illinwek here in Illinois was wiped out by starvation at a place called Starved Rock by the ottawa and another tribe I cannot begin to spell Pow........ I have been up there many times . The feeling is odd that you get . I cannot describe it. They had lived here for over a thousand years at least that is what I read. Later here near my home was Blackhawk. In the end he just wanted to be buried with his forefathers south of me . I believe it was a place now Southern Indiana. Not sure .. I thought it was terrible the government would not give him that last request. They buried him in Iowa, where we had pushed him back to. I have some beautiful photos of Blackhawk . Seems they should be drawings. but they sure look like real photos to me. I need a year on his passing. My memory is not so good like it once was.. One is where he is wearing a black suit. I never knew who was in the photo with him . Maybe a son . they looked identical.. So many nations to remember.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 20:59:27 GMT -6
Thank you for that last link.. I do know there were tribal wars before European landed here. How far back in history I do not know. The Illinwek here in Illinois was wiped out by starvation at a place called Starved Rock by the ottawa and another tribe I cannot begin to spell Pow........ I have been up there many times . The feeling is odd that you get . I cannot describe it. They had lived here for over a thousand years at least that is what I read. Later here near my home was Blackhawk. In the end he just wanted to be buried with his forefathers south of me . I believe it was a place now Southern Indiana. Not sure .. I thought it was terrible the government would not give him that last request. They buried him in Iowa, where we had pushed him back to. I have some beautiful photos of Blackhawk . Seems they should be drawings. but they sure look like real photos to me. I need a year on his passing. My memory is not so good like it once was.. One is where he is wearing a black suit. I never knew who was in the photo with him . Maybe a son . they looked identical.. So many nations to remember. Yes...Native Americans were not "angels" who led a perfectly peaceful existence. They attacked each other and sometimes even did terrible things to other tribes. Like most large groups of human beings all over the world, they were capable of doing very awful things. Often, how a tribe reacted to others depended upon the leaders who were in power (just like our own country, heh). The Cherokee ( Tsalagi in their own language) at the time of the Trail of Tears were very sympathetic toward American settlers. Their leaders wanted to accommodate white settlers and felt there was plenty of land for everyone. However, there were dissidents in their ranks who didn't feel the same way. They isolated themselves in the hills and mountains and wanted nothing to do with the American government, and I can't say that I blamed them for feeling that way. The average Tsalagi person just didn't understand why they had to leave their homeland.
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 21:08:50 GMT -6
lois: No, I haven't heard of that book. While a great number of the original dwellers died, they fortunately did not "vanish" from the earth. They're still with us, and in a twist of irony, are members of society today. Quite a few of us have Native American ancestry, too. They live on, and their culture and heritage have survived. @cliff: I used to walk in the woods adjacent to my uncle's property in rural New England back during the 1970s. I would find arrowheads in the ground and the undergrowth, and encountered the remnants of old territorial markers around creeks and close to large hills. That was very old country, untouched by suburbia and urban sprawl. Those woods had a certain power about them, and according to some of the older family friends, it was a common meeting ground of Indians and fur traders. There was a positively ancient wood shack several miles into the woods, and while my cousins and I weren't "allowed" to stray that far, we went there on a few occasions just to look at the place. It was overgrown with moss and vegetation, and from what I've been able to learn about it since, it was a hunter's cabin dating from the late 18th century. Yes I'm so glad that history of this land and its culture was not washed away. We still have it today thanks to the Natives who carried it on. When there is a pow wow near us my husband and I always go. It is the closest I will ever get to a Bison.. We have a place near us that man has never changed. Makes you feel you have stepped back in time. . One log cabin of some kind is on this land. Have no idea who owns it. I'm sure it is state or county. No paths anywhere. Just thick thick vegetation .. you hardly see the sunlight. A humongous tree grows though the floor and out the roof which is really not there any longer in this cabin.. My brother took me their years ago to hunt for deer. He said he goes there all the time and never any other hunters has he seen.. Probably some settlers that once passed through built the cabin. It took him almost two hours to find the cabin .. we just went in circles. . . Kickapoo land..
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 21:16:14 GMT -6
My own opinion on the subject is more realistic: I think that, given time, the First Nations and their tribal allies across the continental United States would have eventually integrated with American society. Sadly, they were never given the chance. History is history, and what's done is done. Fortunately for us all, the U.S. government changed the way in which they dealt with the Native American tribes in the 20th century, and started to protect them instead of victimizing them. Because of that and the efforts of many concerned American citizens, the legacy of Native Americans is alive today.
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 21:28:40 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing that film, Lois. I also want to thank you for caring about the truth. You're a good lady. Gee! I thank you. I guess I care about all life past and present. I love History period. My brother is always saying . Who cares about all those dead people? He says he has enough to worry about in his own life here and now. I thought how cruel. If not for our ancestors we would not be here. Like our family History. He could care less. My family came with the German colonist of 1717. I know all who are my direct ancestors.. None of them fought in any Indian wars. Only the Revolution and none in the Civil war. One great great Uncle fought in the Spanish American War. He survived.. Lorelie . I guess I'm not like you in some sense here. I took History all through school . Also world history and World problems in my senior year. One son has followed me in loving History since he was seven years old and is not 44 .
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 21:31:08 GMT -6
I'm in trouble now.. ;D Sorry Lorelei your post was on another thread.
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Post by bewildered on May 18, 2013 21:35:24 GMT -6
Actually, Lois, this is the thread to discuss all of the Native American issues. I created it specifically for that, so we could stop going back and forth in that "North Korea" thread in the General forum. auntym moved this thread from the General forum to this one, which was a great idea, I think. So no worries, you aren't in trouble Shamira.
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 21:37:42 GMT -6
This is why I have carried a metal detector around all my life in spare time. Not for money or wealth , their is none most of the time, but digging up the past..
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Post by lois on May 18, 2013 21:40:57 GMT -6
I did not realized anything had been moved. I guess you remember me as Shamira how nice! Sometimes when a member comes back and I make my first post I will tell them I was Shamira . Guess with you I did not do that.
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