god
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Post by god on May 21, 2013 10:50:36 GMT -6
Bewildered has left the building?!?!?! (and yes dear, you got out of hand...I know you are going through a lot right now, I hope you are alright, this is very out of character for you!) sheesh! Let's rub salt in my wounds. I am sorry. I don't want anyone to leave. . . . . I recall you guys used to have a Friday's joke section....(in one of your previous forums)...Maybe you should reconsidered the thought....just saying..... GOD
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CitizenK
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I'm Back Guys!!! I've missed you so much!!!
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Post by CitizenK on May 21, 2013 12:28:14 GMT -6
Good idea God
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Post by Morgan Sierra on May 21, 2013 13:57:38 GMT -6
Bewildered has left the building?!?!?! (and yes dear, you got out of hand...I know you are going through a lot right now, I hope you are alright, this is very out of character for you!) sheesh! Let's rub salt in my wounds. I am sorry. I don't want anyone to leave. . . . . It wasn't your fault, Jcurio. Bewildered was being very antagonistic towards a lot of people for some reason. He seems to have forgotten that the people on this forum are his friends, not his enemies. I don't know if he was just overly sensitive to criticism of the native Americans because of his heritage or if there was something else going on. I suspect it may have been a little bit of both. I'm sorry to see him go also. This is just one of those things that happens when people allow their emotions to get the better of them. I wish him the best of luck whatever he decides to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 18:37:53 GMT -6
It's OK Jc... Bewildered just got upset. He was pretty upset with Randy too on another thread... It seems he is in a very sensitive emotional state right now for some reason- perhaps because of the loss of his father? In any case... He's gone. Maybe he will cool off and come back... maybe not. I will miss him though...
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CitizenK
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I'm Back Guys!!! I've missed you so much!!!
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Post by CitizenK on May 21, 2013 22:35:51 GMT -6
Just to be clear, my quote that is re-posted is addressing Bewildered's behavior, not yours JCurio I will miss him. And am truly worried for his well being. I am also sorry to see Randy go, and my dear friend Jo, though I know she will return, she is still missed.
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Post by paulette on May 22, 2013 8:59:48 GMT -6
Boy, I missed the whole thing. First off, because I am not First Nations and have not done more than casual reading, I felt compelled NOT to comment. Not that others can't. I just try to avoid areas that I am clear I don't know much about.
I recommend the book The Long and Terrible Shadow. It is a well-written history of the Europeans treatment of First Nations in both North and South America. It outlines the ruthlessness of contact from the get go. Yes there were settlers who had individually respectful contact with the people living where they had arrived and wanted to live and grow crops and run animals. But by and large, the agenda was to have the land. I won't even go into details. Suffice to say, except for the scattered "reserves" (and the people there had their children taken away), the European agenda was executed successfully. The same thing is now happening in the Amazon. What had been (relatively) impenetrable jungle is now criss-crossed with logging and mining roads, the trees are either harvested or just burned and agro-business is planting soy and palm oil and other lucrative crops. The people are either "assimilating" as laborers in terrible conditions or just dying because there is no longer game to hunt or even shade to live under. Again...nothing personal here, but the Indios are "squatting" on land that someone else has a use for. So it has always been about land and harvesting its value. IMO.
If one believes one owns the Earth - it is like being color-blind and having no idea what color puce is. What is the problem? Here in Canada the Conservative Federal Government came up with a great idea. Make it easier for bands to sell their lands to non-First Nations. A minimal amount of signatures and the deed is done for all time. That was in part what Idle No More came together to protest. It was in a long many page rambling bill that started off about something else - and was passed without even the voters members knowing the full implications. Having to own everything - and turn it into what you think you want....that is a sickness (IMO). There are pictures up on FB of the Keystone Pipeline being dug through National Parks. And why not? (hint: its sorta like not being able to see in color.)
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Post by lois on May 22, 2013 9:38:26 GMT -6
Thank you Paulette for keeping this topic going. I guess I did not read all of Randy's post on the subject. He came on at a very late hour and my eyes were always so tired as it was much later here. Then for some reason I forgot it later to return. I do recall much of it. And his trip to the battlefield of the 7th Calvary. I have wanted to go there all my life.. Anyone ever see the documentary called "Custer's Last Trouper " ? A forest Ranger was near the river where Banteen sp. fought in the battle. He stumbled upon two skulls in the bank buried .. After all the studies on these skull they came to the conclusion. One man was Irish decent . The other being was a Indian. Only two bodies were not found among the men . I guess one is still out there. Randy taking trips to Natives events goes to show how dedicated he was to the subject.. I will miss him . He has always been here. Hopefully he will be back. That expert who sculptures over skulls made this Irish man exact. As they show a real photo of him in uniform..amazing.
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Post by skywalker on May 22, 2013 16:03:06 GMT -6
I can help you keep this topic going if you want. I majored in History and anthropology in college and I've studied the Native Americans a little. I wouldn't claim to be an expert on them but I've done a lot of reading and I've visited a lot of the historical sites in the US. I've also spent some time on some of the reservations and spoken with a few Indians here and there. Their culture is fascinating. It's a shame a large part of it was wiped out.
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Post by lois on May 22, 2013 19:28:18 GMT -6
I can help you keep this topic going if you want. I majored in History and anthropology in college and I've studied the Native Americans a little. I wouldn't claim to be an expert on them but I've done a lot of reading and I've visited a lot of the historical sites in the US. I've also spent some time on some of the reservations and spoken with a few Indians here and there. Their culture is fascinating. It's a shame a large part of it was wiped out. Thank you.. I'm waiting... ;D ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 11:38:42 GMT -6
If we could just steer clear of "The War", I would be most grateful. I have avoided this subject for so long, and I am among friends here . Every time Auntym posts something about a Native American story, or paranormal event, Sky can vouch that I am all over it, and searching deeper into that particular website, . Belated Thank You Auntym! As my personal thread states, "who am I"? I only know who I am today, and I am forever curious about my Native heritage. There are things that are "embedded" in me, that seem to be of a culture that I need to learn more about. When I was a little girl, I dreamed that a body (of bones) was found somewhere in the Eastern United States, that could be dated as older than any bones previously found. In the dream, there was a lot of controversy, and people insisted that it was a hoax. Why did I dream this? Why do I often dream scenes that are so obviously "Indian" related? Why are my "guides", and other peoples "guides", old men or old women that are wise, Native American looking, and even considered as dream archetypes? Yes, it is a very interesting subject. Carry on . . . . .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 15:46:00 GMT -6
I'm with you Sky..was gone a few days and a good friend of mine is gone..two actually if Randy left too. Reading over the discourse...it just seems to be a lot of drama that could have been avoided before it errupted into bad feelings. Which is why I left in the first place. This forum never used to be as argumentative as it's become. It's a very good thing to voice opinion..it's how we come to understand one another..but it's always nice to remember that the other guy has one too and that yours..even though cherished..might not be the right one, certainly not the only one. Opinions are like ....noses....we all have them. Argument for the sake of argument causes hurt feelings. I choose to walk away.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 8:29:00 GMT -6
I went to Barnes and Nob this weekend and looked in the American History section. All the Native American books must be bought up.
I found one book on the era of the buffalo hunts. The whites looked on it as a way to survive (selling hides), and the Natives ambushed them quite a few times. I can imagine the fear at the time . . . . both for starvation and a way of life, for both cultures.
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Post by skywalker on May 27, 2013 12:32:53 GMT -6
The best book I have ever read about the Native Americans was an old book called Indian Legends that was published way back in the 1880s. That book belonged to my grandfather who gave it to my dad who gave it to me when I was just a little dude. I forget the name of the author but when I get home I'll see if I can find it. It had an amazing collection of true stories, legends, poems and creation myths, and it was told from the perspectives of both sides. The best thing about this book is that the stories were taken directly from the actual people who were alive when it all happened. The author was able to speak directly to people like Sitting Bull and Geronimo and some of the people who fought at Little Bighorn and other places. It's a lot more accurate than anything written fifty or a hundred years later. It seems that anything written today has an agenda behind it so the "facts" end up being changed and manipulated so they support whatever it is the author is trying to promote. If I ever find out who the author is I'll let y'all know. You might be able to find a copy of it on ebay or somewhere. I just looked but there are about a thousand different books with the name "Indian Legends" in the title. None of them was the right one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 15:43:46 GMT -6
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Post by auntym on May 27, 2013 16:18:08 GMT -6
remember the movie 'DANCES WITH WOLVES' with kevin costner?
remember the buffalo scene? very sad...
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Post by skywalker on May 27, 2013 19:00:47 GMT -6
Yup. The buffalo were intionally wiped out by the government to deprive the indians of their food source and force them onto the reservations. They then became dependent upon the government for food and thus were more easily controlled. That's how governments always work. Deprive people of things they need so that they need the government instead. Just another reason to dislike the Feds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 21:36:36 GMT -6
No matter where you go on this planet you'll find some version of the 'feds'. Maybe Antarctica but we'd have to give up McDonald's and stuff..so ...whatcha gonna do? Freedom...is just an illusion because at the bottom of it all...someone is still telling you what to do. If you buy property..you never own it because you will always pay taxes on it..you'll always pay income tax..if you belong to a church..you'll tithe..so that God will love ya..you can't alter your home or add out-buildings without asking permission and having to buy permits..you can't own a car without having it smogged and licensed..welcome to the land of the free...home of the ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 4:15:32 GMT -6
Yup. The buffalo were intionally wiped out by the government to deprive the indians of their food source and force them onto the reservations. They then became dependent upon the government for food and thus were more easily controlled. That's how governments always work. Deprive people of things they need so that they need the government instead. Just another reason to dislike the Feds. "Kill every buffalo you can, for every buffalo dead is an Indian gone." - Colonel R.I. Dodge, Fort McPherson, 1867
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 10:03:52 GMT -6
and they haven't stopped killing buffalo since
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Post by plutronus on May 28, 2013 12:47:09 GMT -6
and they haven't stopped killing buffalo since and they haven't stopped killing buffalo since Have you tried the (California goodies & oddities health-food store chain) Trader-Joe's Buffalo patties? Very tasty, with a pronounced 'wild' flavor that takes a bit of time to embrace, but once one does so, it is a very tasty red meat. And is a bit pricey too. The key to buffalo meat is to not over cook it, else doing so absolutely ruins the flavor, and it becomes tough as leather to chew. It also gives one a glimpse of just how bad cow meat has become in the US.
plutronus
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 13:29:50 GMT -6
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Post by skywalker on May 28, 2013 17:28:14 GMT -6
I tried buffalo meat once. I was at a restaurant and they had a sampler platter that had all this weird stuff on it...buffalo, jackrabbit, alligator, rattlesnake...and some other weird thingies. I didn't like any of them and none of them tasted like chicken. I think they might have cooked the buffalo meat wrong though. No correctly cooked meat could possibly taste that bad.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 18:01:16 GMT -6
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Post by paulette on May 28, 2013 20:40:44 GMT -6
My husband says what is sold here is bison. But its labeled buffalo. They are open range on a farm near me - I see them standing at the fence sometimes (very shaggy). The meat IMO is dark and delicious. Lean so needs moisture or quick searing in oil. We do roasts, buffalo pepperoni, ground sometimes....buying directly from the rancher usually or the small store on the highway nearby. The whites killed the buffalo to starve the Indians. They shot them from moving trains and left them to rot. They could have eaten them but perhaps they weren't curious enough to try it, preferring familar looking livestock.
Hundreds of years later - now the farmers are trying to kill buffalo because they are afraid they spread cattle diseases like brucelosis. Since the buffalo are more resistant, they can carry diseases that then spread to range cattle - which die.
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Post by skywalker on May 28, 2013 21:30:47 GMT -6
The "buffalo" we have here in north america actually are bison but everybody calls them buffalo. Real buffalo live in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world. That's just what bison reminded the European settlers of.
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Post by auntym on May 28, 2013 23:01:49 GMT -6
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Post by lois on May 28, 2013 23:15:56 GMT -6
I call them Bison as that is what the Native Americans hunted.. thanks auntym
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 23:56:52 GMT -6
When Bewildered began this thread, I was pretty interested. Native American culture and spirituality has always fascinated me. And like Bewildered, I think that my views about them is pretty passionate. I thought that now would be a good time to share them.
Even from a young age, I hated American history. But world history, especially ancient history has always fascinated me. The reason that I hated it and didn't really want anything to do with it was because of all the atrocities that have occurred in this land. Most everyone is familiar with our history, so I'll spare the history lesson. Apparently, the truth doesn't like to be ignored. One day, a few years back I was in a used book store with a friend while we waited for our Chinese food order. I was walking down an aisle when a book grabbed my attention. It was called, "The Culture of Make Believe". I read the prologue of the book and decided to buy it. It was about the history of our country. It was one of the most amazing books that I've ever read. Yet at the same time, it tore me up inside. I had nightmares (seriously) while I read this book. It was about hatred, genocide, progress, rape, religion, and civilization itself. It talked extensively about Native Americans. I cried many times in the course of reading this book. I, for one am ashamed of how this country has treated them. Not just them, but also Asians and Blacks. I remember being sorry that I was white when I was a kid after reading about slavery. Of course at that age, I had read the censored version of events.
Even though I have Native American on both sides of my family, especially my dad's side, it doesn't matter. I'm just as white as the next guy. A handful of years ago now, I drove out west. I had a strong desire to go spend time by myself out in the desert, but didn't understand why. I had it for years, but I was afraid of it. It wasn't until I got to California, that I found out that it was for a vision quest. After spending some time visiting with my mom and sister, I traveled to the Painted Desert for some back country camping. I came unprepared. I was only out there a couple days unfortunately. So I decided on my way back out to Illinois, I would drive through the Navaho reservation in Arizona. I've never been so uncomfortable. After stopping the first time, I wanted to keep driving until I was as far away as possible. The looks and vibe I received as I drove was made very clear that I wasn't welcome there. Maybe I was being to sensitive, but it felt very tangible. At least where I drove, the house didn't look too good out in the middle of the desert. I had mentioned this to my grandpa when I got back to Illinois. He said that there houses may be crappy, but they've most likely got brand new trucks and they have those casinos. None of the trucks or cars for that matter looked new. Near dark, I stopped at a McDonald's. I walked in to order to go instead of going through the drive through. As I was walking out of the building, I was stopped by an Indian. He asked if I had some spare change because he was hungry. He reeked of liquor so instead of giving him money, I gave him my food. I asked him if he needed a ride. He said yes. So I drove him to where he needed to go. As he ate, he told me that he was Hopi. What could I say? I wanted to apologize for everything. I wanted to apologize for the genocide of a people. I wanted to apologize for our schools, white man's clothes, and all the garbage that has come from this "glorious" civilization. He thanked me as I dropped him off. I could sense a deep depression from this clearly drunk man. I cried for a while as I continued driving up to the Four Corners Monument. By that time, it was pitch black out and with no light pollution for miles. I stopped my car and got out. I had to hold on to my car as I looked up at the beautiful sky. It was so disorienting because I felt that if I didn't hang on, I was going to fall into the sky. The stars felt so close and it was so amazing.
Since then, I have read a few horrifying stories of what happened to certain groups. Stuff that I couldn't imagine people doing to other people. Yet it's completely believable. All we have to go back to is 1942. Japanese Americans in "Relocation Camps". Further back again with Asians and the railroad. In several cities, Asians were hung and castrated. Further back still, slavery. Further than that, Native Americans. We have a day of remembrance for one of our icons of Western Civilization: Christopher Columbus. He called the Native Americans, "Indios" for children of God. Yet this "religious" man was responsible for the systematic genocide of the original inhabitants of the island of Haiti. The original inhabitants are literally (genetically speaking) extinct. Rape, murder, slavery, and oh yeah - sex slavery. His favorites were thirteen year old girls. So for America, he claimed the lands and the people for Spain. Yet, we have a special day set aside for this monster.
Once again, I got carried away. I won't be posting about this subject anymore. I just had to say what's on my heart. Before I go though, I wanted to leave you with this quote from a Native American, Chiksika: "When a white man kills an Indian in a fair fight it is called hoannable, but when an Indian kills a white man in a fair fight it is called murder. When a white army battles Indians and wins it is called a great victory, but if they lose it is called a massacre and bigger armies are raised. If an Indian flees before the advance of such an armies, when he tries to return he finds that white men are living where he lived. If he tries to fight off such armies, he is killed and the land is taken anyway. When an Indian is killed, it is a great loss which leaves a gap in our people and a sorrow in our heart; when a white is killed three or four step in to take his place and there is no end to it. The white man seeks to conquer nature, to bend it to his will and to use it wastefully until it is all gone and then he simply moves on, leaving the waste behind him and looking for new places to take. The whole white race is a monster who is always hungry and what he eats is land."
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Post by bewildered on Jun 4, 2013 1:01:55 GMT -6
When Bewildered began this thread, I was pretty interested. Native American culture and spirituality has always fascinated me. And like Bewildered, I think that my views about them is pretty passionate. I thought that now would be a good time to share them. Even from a young age, I hated American history. But world history, especially ancient history has always fascinated me. The reason that I hated it and didn't really want anything to do with it was because of all the atrocities that have occurred in this land. Most everyone is familiar with our history, so I'll spare the history lesson. Apparently, the truth doesn't like to be ignored. One day, a few years back I was in a used book store with a friend while we waited for our Chinese food order. I was walking down an aisle when a book grabbed my attention. It was called, "The Culture of Make Believe". I read the prologue of the book and decided to buy it. It was about the history of our country. It was one of the most amazing books that I've ever read. Yet at the same time, it tore me up inside. I had nightmares (seriously) while I read this book. It was about hatred, genocide, progress, rape, religion, and civilization itself. It talked extensively about Native Americans. I cried many times in the course of reading this book. I, for one am ashamed of how this country has treated them. Not just them, but also Asians and Blacks. I remember being sorry that I was white when I was a kid after reading about slavery. Of course at that age, I had read the censored version of events. Even though I have Native American on both sides of my family, especially my dad's side, it doesn't matter. I'm just as white as the next guy. A handful of years ago now, I drove out west. I had a strong desire to go spend time by myself out in the desert, but didn't understand why. I had it for years, but I was afraid of it. It wasn't until I got to California, that I found out that it was for a vision quest. After spending some time visiting with my mom and sister, I traveled to the Painted Desert for some back country camping. I came unprepared. I was only out there a couple days unfortunately. So I decided on my way back out to Illinois, I would drive through the Navaho reservation in Arizona. I've never been so uncomfortable. After stopping the first time, I wanted to keep driving until I was as far away as possible. The looks and vibe I received as I drove was made very clear that I wasn't welcome there. Maybe I was being to sensitive, but it felt very tangible. At least where I drove, the house didn't look too good out in the middle of the desert. I had mentioned this to my grandpa when I got back to Illinois. He said that there houses may be crappy, but they've most likely got brand new trucks and they have those casinos. None of the trucks or cars for that matter looked new. Near dark, I stopped at a McDonald's. I walked in to order to go instead of going through the drive through. As I was walking out of the building, I was stopped by an Indian. He asked if I had some spare change because he was hungry. He reeked of liquor so instead of giving him money, I gave him my food. I asked him if he needed a ride. He said yes. So I drove him to where he needed to go. As he ate, he told me that he was Hopi. What could I say? I wanted to apologize for everything. I wanted to apologize for the genocide of a people. I wanted to apologize for our schools, white man's clothes, and all the garbage that has come from this "glorious" civilization. He thanked me as I dropped him off. I could sense a deep depression from this clearly drunk man. I cried for a while as I continued driving up to the Four Corners Monument. By that time, it was pitch black out and with no light pollution for miles. I stopped my car and got out. I had to hold on to my car as I looked up at the beautiful sky. It was so disorienting because I felt that if I didn't hang on, I was going to fall into the sky. The stars felt so close and it was so amazing. Since then, I have read a few horrifying stories of what happened to certain groups. Stuff that I couldn't imagine people doing to other people. Yet it's completely believable. All we have to go back to is 1942. Japanese Americans in "Relocation Camps". Further back again with Asians and the railroad. In several cities, Asians were hung and castrated. Further back still, slavery. Further than that, Native Americans. We have a day of remembrance for one of our icons of Western Civilization: Christopher Columbus. He called the Native Americans, "Indios" for children of God. Yet this "religious" man was responsible for the systematic genocide of the original inhabitants of the island of Haiti. The original inhabitants are literally (genetically speaking) extinct. Rape, murder, slavery, and oh yeah - sex slavery. His favorites were thirteen year old girls. So for America, he claimed the lands and the people for Spain. Yet, we have a special day set aside for this monster. Once again, I got carried away. I won't be posting about this subject anymore. I just had to say what's on my heart. Before I go though, I wanted to leave you with this quote from a Native American, Chiksika: "When a white man kills an Indian in a fair fight it is called hoannable, but when an Indian kills a white man in a fair fight it is called murder. When a white army battles Indians and wins it is called a great victory, but if they lose it is called a massacre and bigger armies are raised. If an Indian flees before the advance of such an armies, when he tries to return he finds that white men are living where he lived. If he tries to fight off such armies, he is killed and the land is taken anyway. When an Indian is killed, it is a great loss which leaves a gap in our people and a sorrow in our heart; when a white is killed three or four step in to take his place and there is no end to it. The white man seeks to conquer nature, to bend it to his will and to use it wastefully until it is all gone and then he simply moves on, leaving the waste behind him and looking for new places to take. The whole white race is a monster who is always hungry and what he eats is land." I didn't have the heart to leave this unanswered, wishmythos. You experienced something very real, and your post moved me simply because I went through it, too. It doesn't happen the way movies or books depict it. The Vision Quest isn't a tradition or a ritual - it's something you are drawn toward, and an experience that you find yourself in whether you like it or not. Anyone who hasn't experienced it wouldn't understand, because no Vision Quest is alike. It can happen anywhere and at any time, but the results are always the same: you face who you think you are, who others think you are, you see others for who they are, and the hardest part of all? You see yourself for who you really are. Your retelling has the ring of the truth to it. I recognize it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2013 2:07:32 GMT -6
Welcome back BW. I hope you stay...
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