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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 15:29:24 GMT -6
Maybe I should post this under Conspiracy theories also, I do know there are those who think Global Warming is some kind of government misdirection but others think it's a real and serious threat. If the oceans rise due to ice melt, coastal cities become fish homes. At the moment, scientists say that the North Atlantic current flowing into the arctic ocean is warmer than it has been in 2,000 years. Arctic thaws can mean very harsh winters for the UK. Simon Boxall of the National Oceanography Centre in Southampton said the Arctic was changing faster than previous models had suggested, and that over the last four years the surface area of Arctic ice had shrunk to levels predicted for 2070.
Referring to a disaster movie depicting a world thrown into a deep freeze, he said: "It's not a catastrophic The Day After Tomorrow-type scenario, but we would notice winters become slightly cooler, and summers would be slightly wetter and cooler." |
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=arctic-current-warmer-than-for-2000uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20110126/twl-arctic-thaw-may-bring-colder-winter-41f21e0.html
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Post by skywalker on Jan 28, 2011 20:22:38 GMT -6
I don't necessarily think that global warming is so much a government misdirection as it is a political activist scam. Many activist groups, as well as individual people, are using it as a way to make money by creating a phony crises and playing off of the fears, or cares, of the people. Politicians also take advantage of it to gain power and further their political agenda. I'm not saying that the climate is not changing, because it does change constantly, just like the weather does. The weather changes on a day to day, or week to week basis, the overall climate changes on a yearly, decade, century or even longer basis. It is a natural process that happens all of the time due to a variety of influences and reasons. In the 1970's we were having a cooling trend and scientists were saying we were having global cooling and were predicting we were heading for another ice age. In the 1980's and 90's the climate warmed up slightly and the same scientists all of a sudden were warning of global warming. Now the climate is cooling off again, so they are changing the name from global warming to climate change so they don't have to keep going back and forth. As far as what they are saying about the North Atlantic current flowing into the arctic ocean being warmer now than it has been any time in the past 2,000 years, I don't see how that can be possible because there have been several times in the past 1000 years where the climate was warmer than it is today. In the early 1900's the climate was warmer than it is now and there were many temperature records set back then that still stand today. When the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock North America was in the middle of a severe draught that lasted for seven years, the longest in recent recorded history. Evidence shows that during medieval times the climate was much warmer than it is today. Given all of those examples of recent warming trends where the climate was as hot or hotter than it is now, how can the Atlantic current be warmer now than it was during these other warm periods? And how can they even attempt to measure that anyway? Unless they had thermometers in the water 2000 years ago there is no way they can know how the ocean temperature has changed during that time. I'm just not convinced that what they are saying is true, and until I see some conclusive evidence I am going to continue to have doubts about it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't study it though. If the climate is changing due to the actions of humans and it turns out that global warming is a real threat, I would rather be the first to admit that I am wrong rather than the last to know about it. Based on the evidence that I have seen so far though, I don't think that I am. Of course other people are more than welcome to disagree with me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 20:37:49 GMT -6
Don't believe everything you read or hear about climate change.
Last week I was watching a program on the History Channel about climate change. According to some crazy wild-eyed looking scientist lady, the permafrost in Alaska is melting and is causing buildings to collapse. She said it is a very big and terrible problem in Alaska.
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I live in Alaska. I have not seen buildings collapsing. I had NEVER heard of this "problem" before I watched the television program... and I LIVE HERE!!!
Why haven't my co-workers been coming to me and saying "Man... my house is collapsing! I have no place else to go! What do I do? Can I stay on your couch until I can find another house?"
My friends have not said anything to me about it either. The only time I hear about this is on national programs on satellite television. It has not been on the local radio stations. It has not been in the local newspaper either.
This has not happened.
This is a blatant LIE!!!
...and yet these scientists try to convince everyone (who does not live in the Arctic) that this fictional catastrophe is really happening!!! And most people don't know any better and panic and think it's true when it isn't.
My house isn't collapsing either. We had a small earthquake a few days ago. My house is still standing. It has survived scarier and more violent quakes than that before... ~shrug~
It's all a bunch of BS. Don't believe ANY of it.
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Post by skywalker on Jan 28, 2011 20:51:11 GMT -6
I hate to say it Lorelei, but when it comes to global warming you and I sound like the Ufomania moderators talking about alien abductions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 20:58:21 GMT -6
I hate it when people LIE about Alaska.
Permafrost frequently melts and re-freezes. Only an idiot would build a house on top of permafrost....
well... OK... my grandfather built his house on permafrost... but he learned his lesson 15 years ago... had it demolished, then had contractors dig underneath the permafrost so he could fill it with sand and build a new house which would not be affected by the permafrost under his property anymore.
Permafrost is not stable. It never has been. It never will be. There is a road up here that goes up into the hills to a hot springs resort. Everyone knows it's the WORST road in the area because it is built on top of permafrost. No matter how many times they repair it, more dips form into it because of the constant freezing, melting, and re-freezing of the permafrost.
It is true. I know it is true because I live here. ~folds her arms across her chest and says "Humph."~
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Post by skywalker on Jan 28, 2011 23:50:31 GMT -6
There is a lot of BS science being spread throughout the climatological (is that a word ) community, just like there is BS being spread throughout the UFO community. They both do huge amounts of damage to the serious scientists who are trying to study these phenomena. I think that both climate change and UFOs need to be studied more thoroughly before anybody comes to any conclusions about either of them. I do welcome hearing other people's ideas about either of these topics though. If somebody has convincing evidence that global warming is really happening I would love to see it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 0:37:31 GMT -6
There is a lot of BS science being spread throughout the climatological (is that a word ) community, just like there is BS being spread throughout the UFO community. They both do huge amounts of damage to the serious scientists who are trying to study these phenomena. I think that both climate change and UFOs need to be studied more thoroughly before anybody comes to any conclusions about either of them. I do welcome hearing other people's ideas about either of these topics though. If somebody has convincing evidence that global warming is really happening I would love to see it. I agree. Convince me I'm wrong. I love a good argument. Really. I do. ~smile~ I would love to see proof of it as well. I also would love to take that wild-eyed scientist and bring her up to Prudhoe Bay where my girlfriend works in the oil fields and make her stand out in the whipping wind when it's -30 and tell her to explain global warming to me in greater detail...
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Post by yamacycler on Jan 29, 2011 9:17:48 GMT -6
Sky, Lorelei I agree with you both and yet I see an even bigger problem. Does anyone study just how much oxygen is being consumed by commercial jets flying 24/7 state to state country to country and continent to continent? How many billion trucks busses and cars are consuming oxygen every day 24/7. By 2050 I predict we'll be seeing water to oxygen generators are commonplace.
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Post by skywalker on Jan 29, 2011 10:36:36 GMT -6
I agree that there are a wide variety of environmental problems that need to be addressed. Acid rain, deforestation, radiaoactive contamination, the globalization of invasive species, water depletion, oxygen depletion...these are just a few of the things that need to be looked at if we hope to continue to thrive on this planet. Not to mention that the amount of pollution we dump all over the place is an outrage. People need to take better care of the environment, or sooner or later Mother Nature is liable to start fighting back.
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Post by paulette on Jan 29, 2011 12:31:05 GMT -6
Lorelei - Do you live in an area where houses are built on permafrost? (I am not being sarcastic - I don't know). I do know that here (Pacific coast Canada) that weather records are broken regularly- the most rain, the highest winds. We now have winds that are not classed as hurricanes (which have a particular structure) but whose winds qualify as hurricane force winds. Because they arrive without undue warning, people are caught unawares. And I heard first hand from an oceanographer about 6 years ago (he was in a ship at the North Pole) that the average water temperature had warmed 5 degrees in 10 years. That is, geographically or oceanography speaking an immense change). The ice over the North Pole is now transversable in an ice breaker or a sub rising from below. I am (as an individual) convinced that global warming is here and that the weather extremes are part of this - colder some places, windier in most places....warmer in a lot of places. It is 13 degrees outside as I type and this is January. It has been been this temperature for about two weeks and before that there was a bit of wet snow that melted almost immediately. It used to be white here when I arrived in 76 and when I raised kids in the 80's - we would have been making snowmen (and thawing pipes) end of January.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 15:40:35 GMT -6
I agree Paulette..I'm in no particular panic over it as it does no good at all but I think it's inevitable. The ice will melt, oceans will rise. We've killed off most of the rain forests, we've polluted the planet and it's not going to matter much which side of the table you're on or if you believe there is a hole in the ozone. Won't happen tomorrow or before 2012 but it's going to eventually be a problem for someone. Speaking of perma frost, I had run across this article but thought it a bit wishy washy...I'm trying to find articles this person is getting his/her data from timworstall.com/2010/03/06/subsea-permafrost-methane-and-were-all-gonna-die/
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Post by skywalker on Jan 29, 2011 15:46:02 GMT -6
The climate changes all of the time, and has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years. I am not denying that, I am just questioning what effect, if any, people are having on it. 20,000 years ago we were in the middle of a huge ice age (that people didn't cause) and 12,000 years ago the temperature warmed up and caused the ice age to end (also not because of people). It has been going back and forth like that since the beginning of time. Why is it all of a sudden people's fault when it wasn't before? That is the connection that I don't see because there isn't any convincing evidence to support it.
Right now the Earth is actually having very mild temperatures because we just recently came out of an ice age. According to the fossil record the Earth is normally a lot hotter (or colder during the ice-ages) than it is now, and if it decides to heat up or cool off again there is nothing we could do to stop it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 15:53:27 GMT -6
A bit of digging unearthed these articles ..that seem to support his perma frost/methane claim. (from the USGS) The thawing of subsea permafrost leads to enhanced methane emissions due to microbial degradation of newly released organic carbon that had previously been trapped in permafrost, and possibly due to methane hydrate degassing. (For more information, see recent studies by Natalia Shakhova and others in the Journal of Geophysical Research, |
soundwaves.usgs.gov/2010/11/www.eoearth.org/article/Permafrost_in_the_Arctic#gen8
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2011 23:03:42 GMT -6
Lorelei - Do you live in an area where houses are built on permafrost? (I am not being sarcastic - I don't know). Paulette, if you had read my previous post you would have seen that there is permafrost here, and that my grandfather's house was built on permafrost, and that there is a road here that is also built in permafrost. I hope this answers your question my dear. I do admit that we have been having very warm winters lately here as well, (compared to the winters during my childhood) but I believe this is a natural cycle. Many scientists also agree that this is a natural cycle which has happened before. It has nothing to do with burning fossil fuels... but burning fossil fuels definitely is not good for the air. I can agree with that, but I believe it is not causing "global warming". I have not seen any "proof" to convince me of this fact. It's all speculation and guessing. The fact of the matter is that humanity is now able to measure temperature changes and ocean temperatures and currents as well as wind currents. Two hundred years ago, there was no way for people to measure these things as we are able to do today. Five hundred years ago there was no way to measure these things either. So... what do we have to compare our current weather patterns to? Absolutely nothing, that's what. How do all of these environmental alarmists KNOW for sure that we are causing this by burning fossil fuels? They don't know. According to the programs I have seen about global warming, every single program, they dig these ice cores in the arctic and in the antarctic and they say that they can see the layers in the ice and bubbles and tell the temperatures and the earth's atmospheric composition very accurately all throughout earth's history. There is one very big problem with this supposed solid "evidence". That big problem is... what does ice do when the planet warms up? It MELTS!!! So... there would not be any "ice evidence" left behind now, would there be? This seems to be their only "proof". I don't buy it. It's ridiculous to be perfectly honest IMO. Just like the hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica everyone was freaking out about during the 1980s. How do they know that the hole hasn't always been there? We have only been able to detect it recently. They have no past history to compare it to... just like climate change. The climate always changes. Ice ages occur. The earth's axis tilts and rotates. The earth's orbit around the sun has also apparently changed as well. There are SO MANY factors which influence the earth it is impossible for us to fathom it all. Really. The moon is gradually pulling away from the Earth as well. Every second the moon drifts farther and farther away from us. Will this not gradually affect the tides on this planet? Of course it will. The moon affects lots of things on this planet, including the reproductive organs of female mammals, and even certain types of coral. Why does everyone seem to think that any kind of change is done by US? There could be thousands if not millions of other causes for climate change which we simply are unable to fathom. This is my viewpoint at least. I do however respect dissenting opinions, but I will not believe it if I have not been presented with any proof. In a sense, I am admitting that I have no idea why the climate seems to be changing. I am also admitting that there is no way for certain for us to be able to point our fingers and say "It's because of THIS! That's the ONLY thing it could be!" I am not saying that the weather doesn't change. I am saying the weather always changes. I am saying that permafrost always thaws and re-freezes, and that ice melts when things get warmer. No offense intended to anyone. I just get emotional sometimes when people lie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2011 12:20:59 GMT -6
Lorelei..the fact is that 'we' as a people have beat this planet to death with logging, strip mining, pollutants and more. This is undeniable. We've polluted rivers, sickened our people and there are piles of garbage floating in the oceans that are miles long. Not a hands on destruction for most of us but I'll wager everyone has made a contribution of some kind. Plastic that doesn't degrade for centuries and harms sea critters. That's not speculation..that is fact. We've destroyed rain-forests for products that we need to make our lives comfortable and there are stockpiles of nuclear waste, and chemicals hiding God only knows where on this planet but no doubt bubbling to the surface of some swamp. We've endangered species and in some cases, caused their extinction and our animal population wanes because of the homes we need to survive. Sorry..but WE did this..it's not a far cry for me to understand why arctic ice is melting. I get just as passionate about things as the next person but I also know we are (as a people) the ones responsible. There are a LOT of people out there trying to clean up the mess..but I think it's a little too late for the Earth to rally.
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Post by paulette on Jan 30, 2011 14:47:27 GMT -6
And I will weigh in with a moderate (IMO) acknowledgment that the changes in our planet's weather and such are not driven by one cause. Other ice ages have been correlated with a lot of volcanic activities (not our fault) which changed the opaqueness of the cloud cover. And yes they do go through grand cycles. But the ice that is being looked at is hundreds and hundreds of years old - it is cored from glaciers and the seasons can be marked by pollen and such (yes pollen lands on glaciers - it blows hundreds of miles). There was a researcher who was studying the layers of mud in a lake - sorting out the pollens and such and discovered that prior to humans there was an abrupt change that literally was only a few seasons long from temperate to arctic conditions. His work was checked and rechecked but not debunked. We like to think that changes are long in coming and establishing themselves. There have always been cataclysmic geologists and such who had isolated evidence to the contrary. In fact, some tipping points arrive suddenly and things are literally not the same within years. Inland seas find a weak point and drain away or lakes disappear because of a sudden diversion of their water sources. A super volcanic system goes off (all of Yellowstone as well as Yosemite were part of an enormous system. If it reactivates, most of California would be directly affected.)
Humans have changed a lot of things. Since we are not in a period of intense volcanism (but might in fact be entering one) we cannot blame volcanics for the rising sulfuric acid content in the air and in the rain. If anyone wants read Seasick - there is huge concern (scientifically substantiated) that as the acidity of the oceans rise, creatures that make shells out of calcium carbonate will not thrive. Since much of the plankton which is the basis of the oceanic food chains need to build shells (and coral needs to build its structures) that is an unknown that is unfolding.
We are NOT responsible for magnetic reversals. This event is also unfolding and the resultant break down in the Van Allan belts which protect us from solar radiation will make rising sea levels a mere inconvenience. These have happened with no interference from humans many times (the rock layers have minerals that align north and south - these positions have switched many times). Before the poles re-establish all life will be exposed to high levels of radiation.
We are not responsible for increased volcanism. If it recycles it will be significant to civilization.
We are perhaps slightly responsible for some minor earthquakes by pumping out aquifers which otherwise might lubricate movement. But the deep oceanic plate activities are miles deep and not influenced by surface activities. San Andreas runs for 300 miles alongside and through highly populated areas in California.
Wobble of the earth is also implicated in ice ages and warming ages. We aren't doing that either.
The immediate result for me is to want to tell people I love that frequently and to eat dessert. Also to love and live life as fully as I can.
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Post by skywalker on Jan 30, 2011 16:37:30 GMT -6
Antarctic ice is growing, not melting awayby Greg Roberts www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13253ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap. The results of ice-core drilling and sea ice monitoring indicate there is no large-scale melting of ice over most of Antarctica, although experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast. Antarctica has 90 per cent of the Earth's ice and 80 per cent of its fresh water, The Australian reports. Extensive melting of Antarctic ice sheets would be required to raise sea levels substantially, and ice is melting in parts of west Antarctica. The destabilisation of the Wilkins ice shelf generated international headlines this month. However, the picture is very different in east Antarctica, which includes the territory claimed by Australia. East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades". Australian Antarctic Division glaciology program head Ian Allison said sea ice losses in west Antarctica over the past 30 years had been more than offset by increases in the Ross Sea region, just one sector of east Antarctica. "Sea ice conditions have remained stable in Antarctica generally," Dr Allison said. The melting of sea ice - fast ice and pack ice - does not cause sea levels to rise because the ice is in the water. Sea levels may rise with losses from freshwater ice sheets on the polar caps. In Antarctica, these losses are in the form of icebergs calved from ice shelves formed by glacial movements on the mainland. Last week, federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett said experts predicted sea level rises of up to 6m from Antarctic melting by 2100, but the worst case scenario foreshadowed by the SCAR report was a 1.25m rise. Mr Garrett insisted global warming was causing ice losses throughout Antarctica. "I don't think there's any doubt it is contributing to what we've seen both on the Wilkins shelf and more generally in Antarctica," he said. Dr Allison said there was not any evidence of significant change in the mass of ice shelves in east Antarctica nor any indication that its ice cap was melting. "The only significant calvings in Antarctica have been in the west," he said. And he cautioned that calvings of the magnitude seen recently in west Antarctica might not be unusual. "Ice shelves in general have episodic carvings and there can be large icebergs breaking off - I'm talking 100km or 200km long - every 10 or 20 or 50 years." Ice core drilling in the fast ice off Australia's Davis Station in East Antarctica by the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-Operative Research Centre shows that last year, the ice had a maximum thickness of 1.89m, its densest in 10 years. The average thickness of the ice at Davis since the 1950s is 1.67m. A paper to be published soon by the British Antarctic Survey in the journal Geophysical Research Letters is expected to confirm that over the past 30 years, the area of sea ice around the continent has expanded.
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Post by skywalker on Jan 30, 2011 16:44:51 GMT -6
Global warming is very similar to UFOs. For every believer there is also a skeptic. While the supporters make all sorts of claims that the ice is melting faster than it ever has before and sea levels are rising and we are all about to die if people don't elect some politician or send lots of money, I can find plenty of articles that say the ice is not melting. Not only is the ice not melting but it is actually expanding. Try this one... www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/15/goddard_arctic_ice_mystery/
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Post by skywalker on Jan 30, 2011 17:00:01 GMT -6
Greenpeace Founder Questions Man-Made Global Warming
Every single person interested in the global warming debate needs to listen to this video.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2011 19:49:42 GMT -6
It's good to present both sides to a proposed issue. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just report what I've found around the net. Personally, I think the planet is in trouble..from warming perhaps or from all of the other things we've put it through. When I see pictures of globs of trash miles long floating in the ocean I pretty much figure we're going down. The trash stew is 80 percent plastic and weighs more than 3.5 million tons. |
This says a lot for us assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/04/16/alg_garbage_ocean.jpgen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
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Post by skywalker on Jan 30, 2011 20:20:52 GMT -6
You'll get no argument from me on that, Jo. We do need to take better care of this planet. Whether the ice caps are melting or not, it can't hurt to cut down on pollution and start cleaning these messes up. We had the power to make them, we should have the power to clean them up. We just need the desire to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2011 22:11:23 GMT -6
Lorelei..the fact is that 'we' as a people have beat this planet to death with logging, strip mining, pollutants and more. This is undeniable. We've polluted rivers, sickened our people and there are piles of garbage floating in the oceans that are miles long. Not a hands on destruction for most of us but I'll wager everyone has made a contribution of some kind. Plastic that doesn't degrade for centuries and harms sea critters. That's not speculation..that is fact. We've destroyed rain-forests for products that we need to make our lives comfortable and there are stockpiles of nuclear waste, and chemicals hiding God only knows where on this planet but no doubt bubbling to the surface of some swamp. We've endangered species and in some cases, caused their extinction and our animal population wanes because of the homes we need to survive. Sorry..but WE did this..it's not a far cry for me to understand why arctic ice is melting. I get just as passionate about things as the next person but I also know we are (as a people) the ones responsible. There are a LOT of people out there trying to clean up the mess..but I think it's a little too late for the Earth to rally. I agree Jo. I didn't say we haven't polluted our planet, I know that we have and it's a terrible tragedy. I also get passionate about it, and I feel good whenever I have the opportunity to recycle. I always re-use glass pickle jars and such things. If everyone were to reduce, reuse and recycle, the world would be a much better place... of course we still have to clean up all the garbage we have already dumped. There are many people and organizations who are doing just that. I'm just saying that Global Warming is probably being caused by natural factors. I have issues believing that it is caused by humanity... yes we have done other bad things, but I feel that this is not one of them.
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