|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 8, 2011 6:04:47 GMT -6
The Willingham case is just a UFO crash case and he states he saw the UFO.
As far as shoot downs I don't think that would be apparent from looking at records. You'll probably see a cover- mechanism and maybe an uptick in crashes if there was a period where jet fighters were being downed by UFOs after firing on them. That's just common sense though because the AF likes to use cover stories and you can thank the British MoD files for revealing that little nugget of info declassifying their UFO files as far as Milton Torres 1957 encounter. The US is a little less transparent.
By the way, Steve's reaction to shoot downs looks suspect. You often wonder what are AF vets doing in the UFO field. Are they narks?
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 8, 2011 7:38:47 GMT -6
I didn't know that Steve was a vet and I really don't think it would matter either way. Given how many people there are in the country who have served in the military I'm sure there are a lot of ex-military people who are now studying ufology. MUFON and EPIC are full of them. Maybe being around all of the advanced technology that we have makes them more open to the idea that advanced technology could exist on other planets as well. Many of our astronauts believe that other worldly beings can travel through space simply because they have done it themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2011 16:07:39 GMT -6
By the way, Steve's reaction to shoot downs looks suspect. You often wonder what are AF vets doing in the UFO field. Are they narks? Wrong again. Never been in the military or a government job. Like everything else about you, you seem more confused than I thought. My reaction to 'BS' suspect? I knew one of the authors of the Del Rio book well, Ruben Uriarte personally. He was my mufon state director. I hesitated about commenting about the Crash at Del Rio book for that reason. There is virtually no research at all in Noe Torres and Ruben's books. They wandered around the Mexico desert, took a few photos and interviewed several people who knew nothing about anything (the other Roswell). If they did the hard thankless research, they would have discovered in their Del Rio book what Kevin Randal learned about Willingham. Ruben mentioned to me he at least traveled to Texas to interview Willingham, but Ruben seemed to have no clue at all how to do research or where to begin looking. He even asked me to research photos of B-47's flying with F-86's for his book. He couldn't even do that! It was a good story only sold to the gullible UFO public to get out a quick book. Uploaded with ImageShack.usHave you read the Del Rio and other Roswell books? There is no supporting documentation in those books anywhere! It is a surprise Stan Freidman did the forward in the Other Roswell book, he did it only because Stan is a long distance pal of Ruben. I know. Without historical research to support anything, it is worthless in building any case for evidence of ET visitation here. The Del Rio book is a fun story which unfortunately sadly becomes more baseless mythology on the 'popular' UFO conference circuit. Any money Ruben made I am happy to say helped him financially at a critical time at least. In any government paper trail, at least there would be some evidence by a govt. accountant somewhere to deny 'non-person' Willingham his benefits for spilling secrets at least. Nothing! Just Ruben and Noe wishing hard despite what they may have suspected 'to believe'. By contrast, 'Roswell' has so many connections with other information and witnesses. I had the pleasure at a UFO conference to have a private conversation with Dr. Jessie Marcel Jr., MD (US Army flight surgeon) one on one over a beer. It is quite rare to speak with a witness who first hand held ET UFO crash debris in his hands. That conversation convinced me that Roswell was more than about weather balloons. It is your gullibility that is suspect bub. Steve
|
|
|
Post by lois on Dec 8, 2011 17:10:51 GMT -6
ufo4peace, I don't recall you being a skeptic so much on the Mufon forum.. Has something changed your outlook on ufos and Aliens?
No one has proof of anything, but all should be considered as it would help put the puzzle together.. One encounter overlooked could be the one of most importance..
This is how I look at it anyway. I know our government could lift the veil on many prove able instances with ufo encounters . .. And again it would not tell us Why we are being visited or what their agenda is..
I feel something is amiss here and had to get it off my mind..
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 8, 2011 19:55:20 GMT -6
ufo4peace, I don't recall you being a skeptic so much on the Mufon forum.. Has something changed your outlook on ufos and Aliens? I think the only thing ufo4peace is skeptical about is the psychic abilities and stuff like that. It seems like he still feels the same as he used to about UFOs and aliens.
|
|
|
Post by lois on Dec 8, 2011 21:56:27 GMT -6
Thanks sky, I was thinking ufos and aliens included. Well one is about as hard to believe as the other really..
|
|
|
Post by lois on Dec 8, 2011 21:59:04 GMT -6
ufo4peace. Sky has made your post clear. ignore the above post. I don't know why I read you so wrong. This is the second time.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 9, 2011 0:06:29 GMT -6
Thanks sky, I was thinking ufos and aliens included. Well one is about as hard to believe as the other really.. That's true. All of this stuff can seem pretty far out there sometimes. The next time a UFO crashes I hope it lands in my backyard so I can pick it up and bring it here to show to everybody...then maybe we could all finally stop wondering about it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 1:16:55 GMT -6
I dont mean any disrespect by going off topic to anyone, but if Steve had been in the AF I would thank him for his service and not suspect him of anything other than what he is. That goes for all vets !!! IMO Steve is one of the best in this field . Not only is he a professional in this field (his credentials speak for themselves) he's also honest and caring which is a quality that is hard to find and I'm fortunate enough to have someone as understanding as he is to share the experience with that still haunts me to this day. Thank you Steve ! This also goes for everyone else here who helped me through these trying times at TEOR . ~ thanks and hugz to all ~
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 1:33:46 GMT -6
I don't like to see anyone here challenged. We come here to feel secure in discussing those happenings in our lives that we are not comfortable sharing elsewhere and some aren't that comfortable sharing at all..I'd ask everyone to be considerate of feelings and not bring discord here. Disagreements or misunderstandings are bound to happen when we have belief in very controversial material. We can agree to disagree civilly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 2:31:54 GMT -6
I dont mean any disrespect by going off topic to anyone, but if Steve had been in the AF I would thank him for his service and not suspect him of anything other than what he is. That goes for all vets !!! IMO Steve is one of the best in this field . Not only is he a professional in this field (his credentials speak for themselves) he's also honest and caring which is a quality that is hard to find and I'm fortunate enough to have someone as understanding as he is to share the experience with that still haunts me to this day. Thank you Steve ! This also goes for everyone else here who helped me through these trying times at TEOR . ~ thanks and hugz to all ~ ~hugz touched~ ~hugz Steve too~ ;D I love you guyz!! <3
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 9, 2011 23:19:50 GMT -6
Wrong again. Never been in the military or a government job. Like everything else about you, you seem more confused than I thought. My reaction to 'BS' suspect? Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. I knew one of the authors of the Del Rio book well, Ruben Uriarte personally. He was my mufon state director. I hesitated about commenting about the Crash at Del Rio book for that reason. There is virtually no research at all in Noe Torres and Ruben's books. They wandered around the Mexico desert, took a few photos and interviewed several people who knew nothing about anything (the other Roswell). If they did the hard thankless research, they would have discovered in their Del Rio book what Kevin Randal learned about Willingham. Ruben mentioned to me he at least traveled to Texas to interview Willingham, but Ruben seemed to have no clue at all how to do research or where to begin looking. He even asked me to research photos of B-47's flying with F-86's for his book. He couldn't even do that! It was a good story only sold to the gullible UFO public to get out a quick book. Before dismissing the witness account see if what he says is plausible. Did B47's escorted by F86's fly in the area described? Uploaded with ImageShack.usHave you read the Del Rio and other Roswell books? There is no supporting documentation in those books anywhere! It is a surprise Stan Freidman did the forward in the Other Roswell book, he did it only because Stan is a long distance pal of Ruben. I know. Without historical research to support anything, it is worthless in building any case for evidence of ET visitation here. The Del Rio book is a fun story which unfortunately sadly becomes more baseless mythology on the 'popular' UFO conference circuit. Any money Ruben made I am happy to say helped him financially at a critical time at least. Friedman also did the forward to Marcel Jr.'s book. In any government paper trail, at least there would be some evidence.... No there wouldn't. They knew about Willingham and everyone from the US and Mexican side who was on the site. www.cdi.org/issues/nukeaccidents/accidents.htmHere's an example of the Air Force cooking the books. February 1958, Greenham Common Airbase, England"The Air Force has never officially admitted that nuclear weapons were involved in this accident. The Air Force and British Ministry of Defence agreed in 1956 to deny the existence of nuclear weapons in any accident involving U.S. nuclear weapons stationed in England. In 1985, the British government reported that the accident involved a parked B-47 that was struck by a taxiing B-47 on a training exercise, omitting any mention of the ensuing fire." Like I said By contrast, 'Roswell' has so many connections with other information and witnesses. I had the pleasure at a UFO conference to have a private conversation with Dr. Jessie Marcel Jr., MD (US Army flight surgeon) one on one over a beer. It is quite rare to speak with a witness who first hand held ET UFO crash debris in his hands. That conversation convinced me that Roswell was more than about weather balloons. It is your gullibility that is suspect bub. Steve It's really not that hard to keep people from not talking especially if it involves military personal. It's actually quite simple. You talk you and your family is dead.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 9, 2011 23:27:37 GMT -6
I dont mean any disrespect by going off topic to anyone, but if Steve had been in the AF I would thank him for his service and not suspect him of anything other than what he is. Most vets understand national security implications and are trained to be like obedient dogs.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 9, 2011 23:35:29 GMT -6
ufo4peace, I don't recall you being a skeptic so much on the Mufon forum.. Has something changed your outlook on ufos and Aliens? No one has proof of anything, but all should be considered as it would help put the puzzle together.. One encounter overlooked could be the one of most importance.. This is how I look at it anyway. I know our government could lift the veil on many prove able instances with ufo encounters . .. And again it would not tell us Why we are being visited or what their agenda is.. I feel something is amiss here and had to get it off my mind.. My view on UFOs is there is a cover-up and anything ET is classified has a high secrecy classification. To understand what is being kept secret you have to look at indicators. I was never big on the clairvoyant side of things. I know certain people in UFOlogy embrace clairvoyance like Ed Mitchell and Steven Greer. If someone could give me the winning NY lottery numbers by sending me private message then I'll become a believer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 23:45:11 GMT -6
I dont mean any disrespect by going off topic to anyone, but if Steve had been in the AF I would thank him for his service and not suspect him of anything other than what he is. Most vets understand national security implications and are trained to be like obedient dogs. I dunno about that UFO4peace... a lot of soldiers have told me certain "Secrets" since I've started working as a civilian on a military installation. Soldiers are people too you know. I've learned a lot of "secrets" from these guys. It's amazing what a little flirting can get you... I've not heard anything about UFOs or aliens though unfortunately. But I digress. Of course, I would NEVER tell anyone the "secrets" I know... ;D Most of them are not really that interesting anyway... =P
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2011 0:05:54 GMT -6
Just trying to get those dudes who are spying on our forum something to worry about... it might make their day a bit less boring... ~smirk~
~puts on a tight fitting shirt and waves at the government dudes~ ;D
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 0:57:10 GMT -6
My view on UFOs is there is a cover-up and anything ET is classified has a high secrecy classification. To understand what is being kept secret you have to look at indicators. I was never big on the clairvoyant side of things. I know certain people in UFOlogy embrace clairvoyance like Ed Mitchell and Steven Greer. If someone could give me the winning NY lottery numbers by sending me private message then I'll become a believer. I agree that there is a cover up and ufo knowledge is highly classified. I think it goes way over the head of the President also since he is only a temporary civilian in command. Most people in the government and the military, and definitely all of the rest of the civilians in the country are not considered to be in the need to know catagory. Looking at indicators is a good way to help get pointed in the right direction but the truth still needs to be found, not just guessed at. The government covers up a lot more than just ufo info. You can't get a straight answer out of them about anything.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 10, 2011 2:44:44 GMT -6
That is supposedly the story according to Willingham in the Del Rio Crash book. In Willingham's account he and another pilot flying F-86's were assigned to escort a B-47 Stratojet over New Mexico/Texas. They encountered a 'disk shaped UFO' that descended and crashed along the Del Rio river between Texas and Mexico. Willingham was given permission to break formation, descend and check it out. He landed at a nearby base, Willingham either flew then in a small plane or drove to the crash scene, where Mexican authorities had cordoned off the area. It's possible for F-86's to escort a B-47 perhaps as a training flight perhaps, but no real need in peacetime to. Even if the B-47 carried atomic weapons, which they often did during that time. A far far better case IMO is the RB-47 case in which strong electronic emissions were recorded by the RB-47H from a UFO (who's design mission was to detect and record electronic emissions such as radars) in July 1957 which gets little attention. I wonder sometimes if UFO crash stories are deliberately planted to distract from cases like this one investigated by none other than Dr. James MacDonald. UFOs may emit different kinds of emissions, but to have a UFO shadow that particular aircraft with the sophisticated electronics to both detect and record those emissions, it is the last kind of aircraft any ET would want to dash away from without it's emissions recorded as evidence. These recording devices were operating on July 17, 1957, which makes that UFO sighting very interesting. A ERB-47H jammed with electronics and two ELINT operators in the special bombbay area to house it all. It's conspicuous antenna receivers breaking up the B-47's clean lines. The crew's two ELINT operators picked up and recorded a strong emission signal from the unidentified flying object at 2,995-3000 mhz. seen visually by the crew and ground radars as well. "One of our most advanced radar-listening planes of the 1950's was flying its final training mission before the men and equipment aboard were to be actively deployed. The plane contained ELINT (our most advanced radar listening technology) and a pilot, co-pilot, navigator and freshly trained crew of three ELINT operators. They were on their last mission just prior to being deployed. The aircraft used was an RB-47 SAC aircraft of the type used to fly along the border of the Soviet Union to monitor their radars. It contained some of the most sophisticated radar listening equipment in the world at the time, and was an extremely important piece of the United States front-line defense. The DF receivers are not radars and do not emit a signal for reflection off a distant target. They only listen passively to incoming radar signals and analyze their signatures and other characteristics.
The mission left from Forbes AFB, Kansas. The unidentified object was first noticed over Gulfport, Mississippi. An ELINT operator picked up the signal from the unidentified object at 2,995-3000 mhz. The signal moved rapidly up the scope, indicating a rapidly moving signal source. At first the operator(s) thought the signal was a malfunction and checked the RB-47 ELINT. It seemed fine, but just to be sure, they switched to another antenna and system. They could see the radar signal from the object, but the operator(s) were still thinking they must have some kind of electronic malfunction.
As the RB47E approached Jackson, Mississippi for the 2nd part of its planned exercise to perform ECM runs against known ground radar units (about 150 miles from Gulfport), the command pilot spotted what he first thinks are landing lights of another jet coming in very fast. The pilot tells the crew; "Looks as though we may have to take evasive maneuvers." Before he can do anything else, the light is upon them, changes direction and flashes directly across their flight path. Both pilots see this occur. Then, taking them totally by surprise, the light simply blinks out.
In an interview with James McDonald, the pilot stated it didn't take off. It just disappeared in front of them. Just before it blinked off, the object had jumped from an 11 o'clock position to a 2 o'clock position in the blink of an eye, as witnessed by both pilots. Neither the movement or the blinking out is technologically possible for our planes, even today. (I believe scientists may have recently moved sub-atomic particles similar to this but not whole planes, and remember, this is back in 1957, more than fifty years ago.)
Pilot and co-pilot immediately begin talking about what had just happened. One of the ELINT operators remembered he got a signal at 2,995-3000 mhz, and set his #2 monitor to scan at 3,000 mhz. On his first scan, the operator got a strong 3,000 mhz signal from their two o'clock position; the bearing on which the luminous object had blinked out moments earlier. The operator of monitor #1 then tuned his equipment to the same frequency and got the same return. He saw it too.
The RB-47 started accelerating and decelerating to attempt to lose the object, however it stayed with them on their journey. (jc: Now, think about what they were chasing in Belgium for approximately 75 minutes in 1990. Yep . . . invisible there too!)
The pilot then contacts Duncanville. Duncanville could see both the UFO and the aircraft with their radars. Something was definitely moving with the plane.
The plane gets permission and eventually attempts to go after the object, which is at a lower altitude. The object stops and they overshoot. At that point, they are running low on gas and have to break off their pursuit. They decide to head home, north to Forbes AFB, Kansas. The object stays with them until approximately half-way home. Then, around Oklahoma city, the object disappears.
Flight Path Map - by James McDonald
It is to be noted, active ground radar had picked up the UFO. At one point in the sighting, the object simultaneously blinked out both visually and radar-wise. (i.e. on the plane and on the ground.) When the object reappeared, it reappeared to the ELINT and ground radar as well.
McDonald interviewed Louis D. Chase, the veteran pilot with twenty years experience who was flying the RB-47. Chase stated that the object approached, changed course instantly, and flew in front of him before he could even react . . . then, it just blinked out. Here was a trained Air Force Pilot who knew what all planes from that era looked like, but he still could not identify it. In his report he said: "The object moved at a velocity he had never seen in his flight experience."
Steve
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 10:06:54 GMT -6
Here is another video of an interview Willingham did regarding the Del Rio crash. It has a little more info than the other one.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 10:43:01 GMT -6
Here is another video of another interview that Willingham gave.
In this one the crash event supposedly occurred in 1950 and he said he was flying out of San Angelo. The previous video he said that it occurred in 1955 and that he was flying out of Carswell AFB in Fort Worth. I have also seen other reports where he claimed it occurred in 1948 and that he was flying out of Dyess AFB near Abilene.
How the heck is anybody supposed to verify anything about this incident if the guy keeps changing his story? In the research that Kevin Randle did he said that there was no evidence that Willingham had ever been an officer in the Air Force. One of the links that I posted earlier concluded that he was instead in the Civilian Air Patrol, which would mean that he was a civilian rather than an actual military officer. In this recent video I noticed that one of the books that the camera filmed did say Civilian Air Patrol on the cover which would seem to confirm that he was in the CAP rather than the Air Force. Unfortunately, since he keeps changing the details of his story, and since there is no other evidence to support what he says, there is no way to verify what base he actually flew out of or what year it occurred, or even if it occurred.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 11:44:52 GMT -6
After giving this matter some more thought I have decided that I don't blame the guy for not remembering what year it happened in. After all, he is about a thousand years old and he did have a stroke which does effect memory. I don't always remember what year things happen in either so I could excuse him for being vague about the details. It just makes the story extremely difficult to verify without any other corroborating evidence.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 11:54:12 GMT -6
I also did a Google Earth search of the area where he said the crash occurred but could not find anything interesting. Willingham said that it looked like it first hit about 200 yards from the river directly south of Langtry, Texas then bounced about a thousand yards before plowing into a hill. I've been to Langtry many times and the area out there is very dry and arid. If the ground had been disturbed in any major way, even 50 years ago, it should still be visible today. Google Earth did not show anything that looked unusual.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2011 16:46:46 GMT -6
I also did a Google Earth search of the area where he said the crash occurred but could not find anything interesting. Willingham said that it looked like it first hit about 200 yards from the river directly south of Langtry, Texas then bounced about a thousand yards before plowing into a hill. I've been to Langtry many times and the area out there is very dry and arid. If the ground had been disturbed in any major way, even 50 years ago, it should still be visible today. Google Earth did not show anything that looked unusual. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I did a search of this area on google earth about a year ago for the same reason. From what I recall there were a couple of marks on the surface but after 50 years who knows ? Thats an interesting story Steve, I hadnt heard about that one. Are there any others worth mentioning that you could share that most dont know anything of ?
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 10, 2011 22:45:06 GMT -6
I've always been interested in the Del Rio crash ever since I first heard about it several years ago, probably for no other reason than because it happened in Texas...or close to it anyway. I've been trying to find info on it for years but there just hasn't been any. The only "historical" documents that have ever mentioned it are the Majestic 12 documents and there are still a lot of questions about whether or not those are even authentic.
ufo4peace wrote
I did verify that F-86s were flown out of Carswell AFB in Fort Worth in the 1950s and that planes from there did sometimes provide escorts for bombers in the area. I still haven't been able to verify anything about Willingham though because he keeps changing his story.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 10, 2011 23:55:02 GMT -6
I've been to Langtry many times and the area out there is very dry and arid. If the ground had been disturbed in any major way, even 50 years ago, it should still be visible today. Google Earth did not show anything that looked unusual. So they would just leave the marks there and still be visible 50+ years later? Lol. GTFOOH. The internet is filled with this type of stuff where people think they are Murder She Wrote solving cases sitting behind a computer. You can go to ATS and there will bee 15 different explanations to a video or a sighting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 1:54:54 GMT -6
If you go to google Earth's site south of the Rio and look at the area in question, youll see an indicator showing where the crash site may have taken place. Then, go back in time to 1996 with the historical feature and you'll see an arrow that was put there for some reason which is visible by air. Im not saying this was put there for that reason but it is coincidental and its there for some reason.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 1:57:35 GMT -6
I'm going to try to find other historical maps that may have evidence of some type of impact. Anyone know of some good sites to check out ? edit to add : I checked terra server and there appears to be something in the same location ( 2006 image).
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 11, 2011 8:04:01 GMT -6
So they would just leave the marks there and still be visible 50+ years later? Lol. GTFOOH. The internet is filled with this type of stuff where people think they are Murder She Wrote solving cases sitting behind a computer. You can go to ATS and there will bee 15 different explanations to a video or a sighting. Satellite photos can be very useful. I use them in my investigations all the time so I can see what is in the area where the sighting occurred. In an arid location like west texas any marks that were made by vehicles or crashing spaceships very likely would still be visible, unless somebody intentionally covered them up, and if that were the case the attempted cover-up likely would still be visible also. The dude who found those pieces of metal at Roswell looked at satellite photos of the area and said that the terrain appeared to show the gouges that supposedly were made when the object crashed. He said that it was a perfect match to what the original witnesses described. I don't see anything south of Langtry that looks like what Willingham described. I also still don't see any evidence to support his claims that the incident even occurred. If I ever do find any I will be more than happy to go down there personally and scour the place with a fine toothed comb, a microscope and a metal detector but so far there is no convincing evidence that any UFO crash took place.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 13:24:07 GMT -6
Recently a former Pentagon employee was teaching his university students how to look for evidence of underground missile sites in China using sat photos and Google earth imagery. What they found has gotten the attention of top officials in our Govt. It doesn't hurt to utilize any and every resource available for sure .
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 11, 2011 14:40:53 GMT -6
I agree. The more thorough an investigation is the less chance that something will be overlooked. People should use everything at their disposal to gather info. I've found some pretty interesting things on Google Earth myself.
Touched, if you happen to find those old images with the arrow I would like to see them.
|
|