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Post by skywalker on Nov 26, 2011 10:32:56 GMT -6
According to Wikipedia the legend of the Nazi UFO was started by one man named Igor Witkowski in a book he wrote in 2000. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Glocke"Claims about the existence of Die Glocke originated in the works of Igor Witkowski. His 2000 Polish language book Prawda O Wunderwaffe (The Truth About The Wonder Weapon, reprinted in German as Die Wahrheit über die Wunderwaffe), refers to it as "The Nazi-Bell". Witkowski wrote that he first discovered the existence of Die Glocke by reading transcripts from an interrogation of former Nazi SS Officer Jakob Sporrenberg. According to Witkowski, he was shown the supposedly classified transcripts in August 1997 by an unnamed Polish intelligence contact who claimed to have access to Polish government documents regarding Nazi secret weapons. Witkowski maintains that he was only allowed to transcribe the documents and was not allowed to make any copies. Although no evidence of the veracity of Witkowski's claims have been produced, they reached a wider audience when they were retold by British author Nick Cook, who added his own speculations to Witkowski's claims in The Hunt for Zero Point.
Allegedly an experiment carried out by Third Reich scientists working for the SS in a German facility known as Der Riese near the Wenceslaus mine and close to the Czech border, Die Glocke is described as being a device "made out of a hard, heavy metal" approximately 9 feet wide and 12 to 15 feet high having a shape similar to that of a large bell." I have read a little about the Nazi UFOs and while I have no doubt that they might have tried to produce such a craft there is no evidence that they succeeded. There were also many attempts to try to build disc-shaped conventional-powered aircraft. One was the Sack AS-6, which was an experimental attempt built with plywood wings. It was tested briefly during WW2 but had little success because it was extremely difficult to control. www.luft46.com/misc/sackas6.html
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 27, 2011 5:06:42 GMT -6
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Post by skywalker on Nov 27, 2011 18:36:49 GMT -6
That's a good article, U4P. Thanks for posting the link.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 19:02:49 GMT -6
What about Jack Northrop? ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````-------Its good to know that Northrop got to see the end result of all those hard years of work creating what became known as the B-2 , although his health by the early 80's had diminished . Imo I personally think his work was sabotaged , but thats another story for another day.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 15:14:59 GMT -6
Pardon me for taking a shot in the dark with a wild guess, but maybe this is something that is happening to the general population and only a small percent of us remember or are aware of what's actually taking place. I hate to speculate, but Ive found myself doing this alot lately. On the other hand Jo, Ive looked at this phenomena from your perspective too and I guess it could be either/or. In a way I did ask for this by being curious about other life in the cosmos . I didn't expect the answer to be "in my face" .
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Post by lois on Nov 28, 2011 22:55:50 GMT -6
If alien visitation is hereditary and I look at my past ancestors . she is all I come up with every time
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Post by lois on Nov 28, 2011 22:57:23 GMT -6
Lorelei . she lived to be almost 100 years old. Now she must of been doing something right..lol
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Post by Steve on Nov 28, 2011 23:11:53 GMT -6
She talked to ghost.. called on ghost. Once she even turned into some one else. Her voice had changed into a mans voice one night with family at the dinner table as she said the prayer. My own Mother witnessed it. Said she got up and walked around the table and touched everyone one on their heads. While in this strange state. She was talking to God in this state. Makes you wonder for sure. She asked God to bless each one she touched and named at the table. She sat back down in her chair and said amen, then open her eyes and did not remember walking around the room. but she did remember asking God to bless each one of them.. Glad I never seen this event or I would of been out the door in one second. This family took it all as . well that is grandma.. She always new the negative and positive beings. She would not associate with the negative. So maybe something was handed down to her. A lot of people think ufos and psychic people have this in common .. I don't know about that UFO 4 peace. If what she did was induced by aliens in one of her ancestors, that would be funny. As it must of backfired on the aliens. What a great story Lois, Thank you. The spirit that was present was obviously moved to express it's happiness perhaps living there with that family, and expressed it the only it knew how by possessing temporarily your Grandma. I wonder if anyone recognized the male voice? Each at the dinner table mentioned by name.... Steve
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Post by Steve on Nov 29, 2011 0:11:47 GMT -6
According to Wikipedia the legend of the Nazi UFO was started by one man named Igor Witkowski in a book he wrote in 2000. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Glocke"Claims about the existence of Die Glocke originated in the works of Igor Witkowski. His 2000 Polish language book Prawda O Wunderwaffe (The Truth About The Wonder Weapon, reprinted in German as Die Wahrheit über die Wunderwaffe), refers to it as "The Nazi-Bell". Witkowski wrote that he first discovered the existence of Die Glocke by reading transcripts from an interrogation of former Nazi SS Officer Jakob Sporrenberg. According to Witkowski, he was shown the supposedly classified transcripts in August 1997 by an unnamed Polish intelligence contact who claimed to have access to Polish government documents regarding Nazi secret weapons. Witkowski maintains that he was only allowed to transcribe the documents and was not allowed to make any copies. Although no evidence of the veracity of Witkowski's claims have been produced, they reached a wider audience when they were retold by British author Nick Cook, who added his own speculations to Witkowski's claims in The Hunt for Zero Point.
Allegedly an experiment carried out by Third Reich scientists working for the SS in a German facility known as Der Riese near the Wenceslaus mine and close to the Czech border, Die Glocke is described as being a device "made out of a hard, heavy metal" approximately 9 feet wide and 12 to 15 feet high having a shape similar to that of a large bell." I have read a little about the Nazi UFOs and while I have no doubt that they might have tried to produce such a craft there is no evidence that they succeeded. There were also many attempts to try to build disc-shaped conventional-powered aircraft. One was the Sack AS-6, which was an experimental attempt built with plywood wings. It was tested briefly during WW2 but had little success because it was extremely difficult to control. www.luft46.com/misc/sackas6.htmlChance -Vought experimented with a 'flying pancake' called the XF5U-1 - the final version hoped to be tested promised a 425 mph top speed and only 20 mph landing speed! It was to explore the unique aerodynamics of this configuration. There never was in any sense any back engineering of any crashed flying saucers associated with it. The shape of flying saucers as often described by witnesses in popular culture make terrible shapes for aerodynamic flight. Sure any ET operator of a UFO would totally agree. Especially since aerodynamics associated with UFO's are not even in the equation. The ovoid shape wing body of the XF5U-1 had an airfoil shape in cross section. UFO's use an entirely different form of propulsion - and not even a 'magnetic' one as U4P mentions. Magnetic fields are never present related to observed flight characteristics of UFO's. Some form of anti-gravity repulsive force is employed. A form of neutrino field. (Paul Hill). There are a number of reports were a craft's repulsive force has effected or has interacted with trees, tree branches, deflected bullets, rocks deflected thrown by persons at hovering craft, bumping trucks and vehicles, rocking cars back and forth, even lifting autos off the ground, dislodging roof tiles, even broken car windshields. Many of the objects effected listed above could not have possibly been effected by a electric or magnetic field. Tree branches, glass, rocks, bullets, roof tiles are not magnetically susceptible materials or conductors. Only a repulsive force could push a automobile without marring it, or shatter a glass windshield. Using an aerodynamic means for a UFO is merely a hindrance, it likely uses a field to push any aerodynamic forces out of the way -why UFO's don't ever seem to create any sonic booms at the incredible speeds often reported. Using a focused repulsive force provided by neutrinos is the only method that fits all the effects observed. It is a force that may need to employ a form of anti-matter to accomplish this. It would be the only method for propulsion both within and outside of our atmosphere too. How do you back engineer a repulsive force when we do not even yet by our science understand how gravity is created? We certainly know how gravity works every day. See Paul Hill's book 'Unconventional Flying Objects: A scientific analysis'. In late 1942 the "Flying Flapjack," made its 1st flight flight when Chance Vought test pilot, Boone T. Guyton, took the V-173 into the air. Flight testing of the V-173 went on through 1942 and 1943, resulting in reports of "flying saucers" from surprised Connecticut locals. The V-173, flown many times, was capable of very short takeoffs and landings. The flying saucer reports associated with the 'Flying Flapjack' using solely aerodynamic means is were any possible connection to UFO's ends completely. The Nazi Sack AS-6 and the XF5U-1 shows again how many independent engineers and designers working perhaps wholly-unaware of the other, given the same design requirements, using the same physics and science will often again and again arrive at similar design answers. Witkowski fails to recognize comparing human designs to UFO's, UFO's use an entirely different means or method of flight we can only contemplate in theory at present. Steve www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/f5u/f5u-2.gif
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Post by ufo4peace on Nov 29, 2011 5:46:23 GMT -6
Sorry ufo4 peace. It would take another 60 years to convince me..That's how long ago it all started with me in my youth. Now I thought I was crazy for most of my teens.. when they get a hold of your mind with contact you would wish you were dead .. I did.. until finally they came and made the same type of contact in 1972.. but they showed them selves at that moment by coming over me in a ship and sending down a green beam almost at my feet. My poor mind was saved from it self, but then I had to realize ufos were real and from another world. Most people today with a long history of encounters will tell you they wished they had never known the truth. I would feel this way also.. but it would mean I was still thinking my mind was way off.. I would rather know it was them.. The mind contact did not scare me in the least even though I was like walking toward the ship not feeling the ground under me and my body feel numb also. It was like I was in two places at once, but this time as I looked up at them I knew I was with them in thought. And that was the scary part in my youth. It happen about 4 times after this event, but at the second encounter I knew they were outdoors before I went out and like wise with the next two encounters. Every single time they made my mind go into a altered state. Oh yes and I would talk to them at that very moment of onset as I knew they could hear me. They need not hear me to know my thoughts, but I talked all the while. I had a sighting at four years old but my Mother told me it was a dream so the later mind altering I did not attribute to ufos or aliens. Most of my contact was in dreams also. this is taking it all a step farther, but it is true. If there is no psychic, how did I dream things and told my family to do this or that to get answers in my youth. I only told them as the dream had told me. It had to be the aliens or it was a psychic dream. My brother lost a silver dollar outdoors . My grandfather had given us both one that day. I put mind awayi but my brother took his outdoors to show all his friends. When he came into the house he did not have his dollar. My Mother and I was out shopping, when we got home he was having a temper tantrum and it lasted til ten when he finally fell asleep. I slept with him and I thought poor Joseph, I wish we could find your dollar as I watched him sleep. My dream that night was I was outdoor and on a hill in front of the house. There were fall leaves everywhere. In the dream a voice said go down on the hill and look under the red leaf so I did and there was his dollar. When I woke I wanted to go out and look but my Mother said wait till after breakfast. I ate and practically pulled her out the back door and lead her around to the front of the house, I told her as we walked in leaves to the edge of our yard which went down to the city sidewalk.. Mom there is a red leaf on the hill where the tree is growing . There was no red leaves just like in my dream. But when we got to the hill there it was just like the dream told me. She or I bent down and picked up the leaf. She could not believe, as she picked up Joe's dollar. It was a peace dollar heads up. I can still see it right this minute. After this the dreams keep on coming, either way I knew and I always knew if the dream was true or not. Just like the earthquake dreams. I know for sure if the quake will happen or not or if the dream was not a future event.. The first quake dream I ever had was in 68 the New Madrid fault line in south eastern Mo. hit us at noon.. I knew it was going to happen . I even worn my husband before he left for work. He thought I was crazy as we never felt this quake as far North before, not in my lifetime anyway up to that point. I was 24 years old. I still dream of quakes. So it has been a good part of my lifetime.. I think the aliens are doing this some how.. Not a psychic thing. That is one thing I'm not sure about. But a mind encounter hit me before I went to sleep and I sat there til 5 am and could not stand it any longer. I knew something out doors was playing with my mind, but then I had never seen a ufo involved. Today I'm only happy that I did find out. My parents once thought about me telling a doctor. lol.. I was never going to tell it to a stranger ever. It may of made me seem more crazy and a shrink would of mess me up more with all their ideas. So I was glad we never had to tell. I wanted to scream to everyone when I knew the truth, but who was I ever going to tell it too??? I believe abductions and close encounters are real but as far as people you see on the internet it's hard to say. To them their story is very real but it's only real in their heads. Here's an article about a person with schizophrenia: Learning to Cope With a Mind’s Taunting VoicesI'm sure some people latch on to aliens and UFO's or paranormal/ new age beliefs to help them better understand what they are going through. This is the tricky thing dealing with the UFO phenomenon. I try to look for cases that are documented and having other witnesses go on record validating the sighting it a stronger case but as far as a persons word on a forum that sort of thing is less concrete. On the subject of the human brain, the brain can be very powerful. Dreams are a form of entertainment but your eyes see a lot....more later.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 10:02:52 GMT -6
Yea, you're right UFO4peace. A lot of people do have mental illness in this field. I read the article you posted.
Just so you know, I have been tested for mental illness. I was hospitalized twice and tested by psychologists and mental health nurses. I was hospitalized because my parents thought I needed to be.
None of the medical professionals said I had a serious mental illness. Apparently one can actually see schizophrenia on an MRI now. It is like Alzheimer's disease from what they told me and you can actually see it. They did an MRI of my brain and told me I do not have schizophrenia, I do not have a brain tumor and I do not have a personality disorder. I am not severely mentally ill. If I was, I would be taking tons of pills a day and would still be forced to have therapy, or I might still be in the hospital. I'm not.
A man at the store I used to work at attacked a co-worker with a box cutter because he had schizophrenia and the voices told him to do it. I am proud to admit to you that I have never done anything like that before in my entire life.
This is what medical professionals have told me UFO. Five different psychiatrists have told me I'm perfectly fine... I just have "severe depression" and I have been traumatized. That's all. Nothing serious.
If you think all of us are out of our minds here and you don't believe what we have to say, then why are you posting your information here for us to comment on? Why do you want us to believe you and your sources if you don't believe us?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 11:13:18 GMT -6
Lorelei..your parents were trying to deal with a very special daughter they just didn't understand and that...is the plight of many kids. More often now days kids are dosed with ridlin and proceed through life like little zombies probably much less interesting to anyone 'listening'. If my father hadn't been more preoccupied with his horses than his daughter..I might have been on the couch with you The horses then provided me with the childhood escape outlet and eventually right into a ufo. Way to go dad. LOL. He always spoke mysteriously about the 'family secret' but bless him..he took it with him. Maybe Lois they are keeping a contact with 'ancestors', that's certainly as good an explanation as any other I do think there is some criteria they abduct by..and I think like you and I Lois..they hang around from childhood on...that in all of the abductees there is a childhood incident too that establishes their 'tie'. To me..that's a fault in them..one more incident of having no compassion. True that children are more 'malleable' and easier to handle but to most humans..preying on children is about the worst thing there is. They don't seem to cherish the young or the adult. UFO4peace..I admire your dedication to what you believe in..have you ever considered there may be a strong reason for your beliefs? A large percentage of the population chugs along just fine giving little thought to space, let alone possible occupants. Your belief in UFO's, abductions and encounters boarders on an obsession..and you defend it that way. Pretty much like most of us here do. We know..or suspect we know...we're a part of some alien agenda. If you've come to a place like this..you're most likely a part of that too..memory of it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 15:48:59 GMT -6
On my part I wish it were a medical condition. At least then I would have an explanation for whats happening and be able to accept it. When you have others around you at different times witnessing and describing the same thing youre seeing it then verifies what youre encountering is very real . Its just something you have to experience in order to even try to understand.
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Post by skywalker on Nov 29, 2011 18:49:52 GMT -6
It's ok if u4p doesn't believe what people say about their psychic abilities. Most ufologists don't. In fact, most ufologists won't even accept that abductions are occurring. They may be willing to go out on a limb and accept the possibility that some advanced for of extraterrestrial life might exist in the world, and that it might possibly even be coming here to this planet, but when it comes to people systematically being taken from their homes and subjected to torturous experiments...they just aren't willing to go there.
The same could be said for most people in the general public. When asked if they believe in the existence of UFOs the majority of the people will say yes, but ask them the same question about abductions and they just roll their eyes, smirk and start making sarcastic comments. Unless they actually experience it for themselves they will never be convinced. Even if they do experience it themselves they still might not want accept it.
I didn't want to accept it either. For two decades after my abduction experience I continued to be a skeptic just because I refused to believe that I had been abducted by aliens. Instead, I tried as hard as I could to find some other explanation for it. It was only after twenty years of trying that I finally came to realize that there is no conventional scientific explanation for what happened.
The same goes for the psychic abilities too. I tried to not accept that those were happening either, but after experiencing it day after day, week after week, year after year it got to the point that it could no longer be denied. Psychic abilities and mental telepathy do exist. For me and the rest of the people who have experienced them it is undeniable.
Having said that however, that does not mean that I automatically believe every word that people say when they claim to be psychic...or abductees for that matter. There are a lot of people who are delusional or who do have mental problems, and there are also a lot of people who just give in to wishful thinking. Wanting to be abducted and being abducted are not the same thing. Believe it or not I am still very skeptical when I listen to other people's stories, but having experienced these things myself repeatedly over the past two decades I am able to pick up on certain details about the stories that people tell and compare them to my own experiences. That helps me to recognize who is and is not telling the truth, or in the case of the fantasy prone people, those who are describing actual experiences rather than just fantasies.
A person who has never experienced these things for themselves would not have that personal experience to fall back on so it is understandable why they would be skeptical. That doesn't mean it isn't a real phenomenon though.
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Post by Steve on Nov 29, 2011 19:37:32 GMT -6
On my part I wish it were a medical condition. At least then I would have an explanation for whats happening and be able to accept it. When you have others around you at different times witnessing and describing the same thing youre seeing it then verifies what youre encountering is very real . Its just something you have to experience in order to even try to understand. Hi Cliff, You touch what many wonder and wish, that abduction experiences are a medical condition. That way it would at least feel there is a possible explanation and a 'cure' for what seems still unresolved. More, you can have a sense of' control' return knowing your going somewhere. That way one doesn't feel like a duck in some kind of celestial shooting gallery helpless to prevent another encounter. The couple I have worked with in the past, who had the two consecutive night experiences while camping reported two weeks ago they suspect they may have been visited again. I am not too clear why they think this based on what they described, often the covers of their bed bunched up on one person and not the other, and a few other unusual things, but nothing really that unusual. But I work with them on the assumption they could be more subconsciously aware of something. Intuition? They report to an extent having accepted they might be visited again. I think they are certainly far less anxious now about it now, which makes me feel at least our work has helped them too. No abductee or researcher has no certain answer how to prevent such a visit. Perhaps also, any alien visitation that maybe happening may not be necessarily bad either. There maybe more going on than then all the human parties involved may be aware of. They having been 'taken' may have more to go on. They are experiencing all that you describe so well Cliff. You express so empathetically Cliff what many feel here. Your contributions here are more than you realize. You matter and we appreciate you. Steve
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Post by skywalker on Nov 29, 2011 20:01:59 GMT -6
Here is another good site with photos of different round winged planes. Some of them I had never heard of before. celticowboy.com/Round%20Aircraft%20Designs.htmThere was also one built in Russia back in the 1950s I think. I remember seeing a photo of it in one of my books but haven't been able to find it on the net yet. It looked very similar in design to the German plane. I might move these posts about the planes to a new thread.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 20:50:56 GMT -6
I absolutely understand what you're saying Cliff. I understand too Sky..about people believing in the possibility of UFO's and not accepting abductions at all. I am positive that part of that is that it's not a thought worth sanctioning. It's impossibly scary to think there are entities running amok hijacking folks and using them for lab rats. It means..we can't control the boogie monster. Some of us have made some peace with that..some don't want to consider it at all. I know there are a scattered few stories about aliens killing people...I don't believe that unless someone got in the way of their technology by accident. In ways..it seems they do try to 'protect' their subjects with loss of memory..maybe that's to lessen the impact. Anything's possible
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Post by ufo4peace on Dec 4, 2011 19:40:42 GMT -6
Try to explain that to people who don't believe in UFOs... Skywalkwer, Some vets here did not like it when I posted the shoot down of UFOs or SDI type weapons used against them but you had a pilot that was on record and former MoD Nick Pope confirming it. The psychic stuff on the other hand can be used to muddy the waters because anyone can just make up a story. UFOs have been observed by multiple witnesses, tracked by radar etc. so there is a bit of a difference there. I'll just say I'm not a huge fan of silly looking conspiracy/ paranormal UFO forums with green or blue text. I think the subject matter has been trivialized enough. Do we really need another Into The Unknown forum? Or Above Secrecy Forum, Your Minds Are Open Forum? I think I'll just go back to MUFONs forum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2011 22:22:00 GMT -6
Try to explain that to people who don't believe in UFOs... Skywalkwer, Some vets here did not like it when I posted the shoot down of UFOs or SDI type weapons used against them but you had a pilot that was on record and former MoD Nick Pope confirming it. The psychic stuff on the other hand can be used to muddy the waters because anyone can just make up a story. UFOs have been observed by multiple witnesses, tracked by radar etc. so there is a bit of a difference there. I'll just say I'm not a huge fan of silly looking conspiracy/ paranormal UFO forums with green or blue text. I think the subject matter has been trivialized enough. Do we really need another Into The Unknown forum? Or Above Secrecy Forum, Your Minds Are Open Forum? I think I'll just go back to MUFONs forum. It is a free country ;D . I feel like Lois went through some effort to "get you here", so please show some tact and tell her good-bye properly, if you're going. Ok mate? Last but not least, no one is muddying the waters here. I think you've been on so many different forums that you've forgotten where you are. If some of your comments throughout this forum were meant to be funny, I'm just sorry I didn't get to know you well enough to appreciate your type of humor... jcurio
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Post by skywalker on Dec 4, 2011 22:42:07 GMT -6
Try to explain that to people who don't believe in UFOs... Skywalkwer, Some vets here did not like it when I posted the shoot down of UFOs or SDI type weapons used against them but you had a pilot that was on record and former MoD Nick Pope confirming it. The psychic stuff on the other hand can be used to muddy the waters because anyone can just make up a story. UFOs have been observed by multiple witnesses, tracked by radar etc. so there is a bit of a difference there. I'll just say I'm not a huge fan of silly looking conspiracy/ paranormal UFO forums with green or blue text. I think the subject matter has been trivialized enough. Do we really need another Into The Unknown forum? Or Above Secrecy Forum, Your Minds Are Open Forum? I think I'll just go back to MUFONs forum. U4P, all I am saying is that psychic phenomena is another piece of the UFO puzzle that needs to be taken into consideration if we are ever going to get a clear picture of what UFOs are all about. That doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to believe it. You are free to believe whatever you want. I, personally, am looking into it because my own personal experiences have taught me that there is something there that needs to be investigated. Hopefully, by looking at it from that different perspective I may be able to gain a little more insight into what is going on and why it is happening. Other people are free to look in other areas but this is the direction that I am pursuing at the moment. If you don't agree with it that's fine. There is plenty of room for everybody to look in their own directions. The more people we have looking the more opportunities there are for somebody to find out the truth. In my opinion ufology seems to have gotten stuck in a rut over the past sixty years with the same people conducting the same investigations using the same tired old methodology...and we are no closer to figuring out what is going on now than we were sixty years ago. Maybe it is time that we try something new and start considering things that haven't been considered before and looking in new directions...thinking outside the box so to speak. That is what I am doing. That doesn't mean that you have to though. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I was just pointing out earlier that your disbelief in psychic abilities is no different than a skeptic's disbelief in UFOs. The evidence for psychic phenomena may not be as tangible as photos or videos or radar reports but it still exists...even if it is only available on a personal level for those who have experienced it. You are right that people do sometimes make up fictional stories and muddy up the water. There are all sorts of silly stories about all sorts of crazy things plastered all over the internet. That unfortunately is one of the problems that we in the UFO community are faced with. In order to find a grain of truth we first have to dig through a mountain of BS. I'm no more happy about that than you are but I have accepted it as a fact of life because there is no way that we can control what other people say. That's what Jj was trying to do on Ufomania. He wanted to put restrictions on who could and could not take part in the discussions and what they could and could not say. Anything that he didn't agree with would either be deleted or relocated down to the bottom of the forum and stuck in the "Tin-foil loony-tunes" section. That, in my opinion is censorship and it should never be tolerated, no matter how pure the motives might be for doing it. One of the things JJ especially wanted to do was stop the experiencers from talking about their personal experiences simply because he did not agree with them. That is one of the main reasons why I ended up leaving and creating this forum. I wanted to create a place where everybody would be free to talk about whatever they wanted to talk about without having a lot of rules and restrictions placed upon them. Everybody is welcome here...it doesn't matter what they believe or what their opinions are. Most of the people here right now are abductees and experiencers because those are the people who chose to come over here. The hardcore skeptics stayed over there. I think this forum is unique simply because of the large number of experiencers who are here. We have a golden opportunity to explore different areas that haven't been investigated before, and we can do so simply by listening to each others stories and comparing our experiences. It's amazing how many similarities there are among the people here. Of course a skeptic could just dismiss it all as make-believe nonsense and fantasy-prone delusions...and that's fine. People can believe whatever they want to believe. I think that people are intelligent enough that they should be able to make up their own minds about what they will or will not accept as evidence. As for what you posted about the pilots shooting down UFOs, I don't totally disagree with that theory. I don't totally believe it either simply because I don't think we have the ability to bring one of those things down. That's just my own opinion though. We could have shot down a thousand of them for all I know. It's possible there could be some huge war going on between the governments of the world and an evil invading ET race. We might have weapons up in space blasting away at the aliens any time they get near our atmosphere...who knows what is really going on? This is why I think it is important for people to be able to express their opinions and share their views, even if they don't always agree on everything. That is what a forum is all about...people who share a common interest can talk about things that interest them, share their ideas and information, and hopefully learn something in the process. That's all that people were doing. They were just engaging in a debate...they weren't trying to silence you or stop you from posting. I realize we don't have a huge number of in-depth detailed discussions on serious UFO topics here, but that is only because we are still a young forum and we only have a handful of serious investigators. We are still growing and gaining new people though. Over time TEOR may turn out to be one of the best forums on the internet. We'll just have to wait and see what the forum grows up to be. Whether or not you want to be a part of it and have some influence on it is up to you.
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Post by ufo4peace on Dec 6, 2011 2:23:58 GMT -6
Amusing U4P will exclaim the experts say so many military jets in the 50's without any proof other than an author (like any of us could do) then must be due to hostile intent by UFO's. Proof. It's a declassified case from 1957 that grabbed headlines. The witness has gone on record. I guess people are so used to dismissing UFO's as not proof that they overlook the evidence that they claim doesn't exist. The Mantel case is debatable. Stanton Friedman & Frank Feschino Jr. are just as responsible for any mysterious military or civilian air crashes as any ET's are. Insert during the Flatwoods Monster, the Washington Nationals UFO flap era. In their defense there are a lot of cases of jets scrambling after UFO's. There are also close encounter reports of craft landing for repair. I don't think that's Stanton Friedman & Frank Feschino Jr.'s wild imagination. Worse, Mufon quotes figures in total numbers that are grossly exaggerated. Well I can't speak for MUFON. He's successful, a nuclear physicist and you are just some small time UFO investigator. Some UFO researchers can be incredibility sloppy or disregard details. I have met a few unbelievably. The details can be everything. Or the details can be literally nothing in the case of classified information. You will not see such details but you may see indicators. Another book claims a UFO crashed next to the Rio Grande in the 1950's and the F-86 pilot landed after chasing it to examine the wreckage with Mexican authorities. Records show he was never even in the USAF! Conspiracy people just say "see - they erased his records!" denying his pension. Did anyone fail to consider there would be a record of that too if it was true? I'm sure the powers that be can make it look like you never existed if you ever got mixed up with something. Hell, there are witness harassment cases for a reason. I don't think being honest with the public is in the agenda. BTW, SDI technology is everywhere, from new lasers as point defense weapons on ships against anti-ship missiles to your cell phones. Steve I think Colman von Keviczky predates that but your patronizing aside Star Wars was a space defense platform. People report beams emanating from UFOs. Similar technology could have been used against fast walkers in secrecy. Your whole position is if there is no "official" records of something it must not exist and let me patronize you with the obvious. The history of aviation. Feed that line of bull to someone else.
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Post by ufo4peace on Dec 6, 2011 3:09:26 GMT -6
Skywalkwer, Some vets here did not like it when I posted the shoot down of UFOs or SDI type weapons used against them but you had a pilot that was on record and former MoD Nick Pope confirming it. The psychic stuff on the other hand can be used to muddy the waters because anyone can just make up a story. UFOs have been observed by multiple witnesses, tracked by radar etc. so there is a bit of a difference there. I'll just say I'm not a huge fan of silly looking conspiracy/ paranormal UFO forums with green or blue text. I think the subject matter has been trivialized enough. Do we really need another Into The Unknown forum? Or Above Secrecy Forum, Your Minds Are Open Forum? I think I'll just go back to MUFONs forum. U4P, all I am saying is that psychic phenomena is another piece of the UFO puzzle that needs to be taken into consideration if we are ever going to get a clear picture of what UFOs are all about. That doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to believe it. You are free to believe whatever you want. I, personally, am looking into it because my own personal experiences have taught me that there is something there that needs to be investigated. Hopefully, by looking at it from that different perspective I may be able to gain a little more insight into what is going on and why it is happening. Other people are free to look in other areas but this is the direction that I am pursuing at the moment. If you don't agree with it that's fine. There is plenty of room for everybody to look in their own directions. The more people we have looking the more opportunities there are for somebody to find out the truth. In my opinion ufology seems to have gotten stuck in a rut over the past sixty years with the same people conducting the same investigations using the same tired old methodology...and we are no closer to figuring out what is going on now than we were sixty years ago. Maybe it is time that we try something new and start considering things that haven't been considered before and looking in new directions...thinking outside the box so to speak. That is what I am doing. That doesn't mean that you have to though. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I was just pointing out earlier that your disbelief in psychic abilities is no different than a skeptic's disbelief in UFOs. The evidence for psychic phenomena may not be as tangible as photos or videos or radar reports but it still exists...even if it is only available on a personal level for those who have experienced it. You are right that people do sometimes make up fictional stories and muddy up the water. There are all sorts of silly stories about all sorts of crazy things plastered all over the internet. That unfortunately is one of the problems that we in the UFO community are faced with. In order to find a grain of truth we first have to dig through a mountain of BS. I'm no more happy about that than you are but I have accepted it as a fact of life because there is no way that we can control what other people say. That's what Jj was trying to do on Ufomania. He wanted to put restrictions on who could and could not take part in the discussions and what they could and could not say. Anything that he didn't agree with would either be deleted or relocated down to the bottom of the forum and stuck in the "Tin-foil loony-tunes" section. That, in my opinion is censorship and it should never be tolerated, no matter how pure the motives might be for doing it. One of the things JJ especially wanted to do was stop the experiencers from talking about their personal experiences simply because he did not agree with them. That is one of the main reasons why I ended up leaving and creating this forum. I wanted to create a place where everybody would be free to talk about whatever they wanted to talk about without having a lot of rules and restrictions placed upon them. Everybody is welcome here...it doesn't matter what they believe or what their opinions are. Most of the people here right now are abductees and experiencers because those are the people who chose to come over here. The hardcore skeptics stayed over there. I think this forum is unique simply because of the large number of experiencers who are here. We have a golden opportunity to explore different areas that haven't been investigated before, and we can do so simply by listening to each others stories and comparing our experiences. It's amazing how many similarities there are among the people here. Of course a skeptic could just dismiss it all as make-believe nonsense and fantasy-prone delusions...and that's fine. People can believe whatever they want to believe. I think that people are intelligent enough that they should be able to make up their own minds about what they will or will not accept as evidence. As for what you posted about the pilots shooting down UFOs, I don't totally disagree with that theory. I don't totally believe it either simply because I don't think we have the ability to bring one of those things down. That's just my own opinion though. We could have shot down a thousand of them for all I know. It's possible there could be some huge war going on between the governments of the world and an evil invading ET race. We might have weapons up in space blasting away at the aliens any time they get near our atmosphere...who knows what is really going on? This is why I think it is important for people to be able to express their opinions and share their views, even if they don't always agree on everything. That is what a forum is all about...people who share a common interest can talk about things that interest them, share their ideas and information, and hopefully learn something in the process. That's all that people were doing. They were just engaging in a debate...they weren't trying to silence you or stop you from posting. I realize we don't have a huge number of in-depth detailed discussions on serious UFO topics here, but that is only because we are still a young forum and we only have a handful of serious investigators. We are still growing and gaining new people though. Over time TEOR may turn out to be one of the best forums on the internet. We'll just have to wait and see what the forum grows up to be. Whether or not you want to be a part of it and have some influence on it is up to you. Don't get your hopes up because internet forums are kind of passe'.
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Post by ufo4peace on Dec 6, 2011 12:02:22 GMT -6
Well I don't believe the stories or abilities people claim to have on this small forum but as Skywalker says anything goes. Post away. He wants the traffic.
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Post by lois on Dec 6, 2011 12:58:55 GMT -6
Where did half the post go on this thread.
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Post by Steve on Dec 6, 2011 14:15:25 GMT -6
Trying to not have any animosity toward anyone - but you should pull your pants up U4P while you shoot indiscriminately at just about everyone here. In your rants you fail to see it would be logical to research missing aircraft (that history of aviation you show disdain and igannance of) related to any UFO encounters. It would be naive to expect public explanations in declassified files of strange reports of missing aircraft, but I accept that files can tell you much often by what they don't tell you. Or should I not bother you with facts? How else could you research? You think the ET's will share that information in hard copy instead? I think ET's are visiting here, but to create a 'phony air war' because of certain author's questionable biased research you blindly follow every word of.... , just show us the evidence. You can't. Military jet scrambles of 'UFO's are a common place daily occurrence. Who's feeding bull? I have worked personally with Stan Friedman on one case involving crash retrieval witnesses. So I have some rudimentary respectful ideas about Mr. Friedman. I have done almost 400 UFO and abduction cases in my lifetime thus far with Mufon and EPIC. Held positions as a Chief Investigator and Assistant State Director in a very active state region, and my work is well respected. Taught field Investigators. In the same positions now in EPIC. I was a guest speaker at the Mufon international symposium in 2006. Field investigators enjoy working with me, looking into and stretching what is possible. Pushing back the limits of the impossible objectively keeping ones feet still on the ground. I will not professionally question your experience, so don't question mine except for how many UFO cases have you ever investigated? Not on the Internet, but with boots firmly on the ground actually coming in contact with and helping people U4P? Forums passe? Or are you U4P just running out of welcomes in most of them? Steve
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Post by skywalker on Dec 6, 2011 17:30:04 GMT -6
Well I don't believe the stories or abilities people claim to have on this small forum but as Skywalker says anything goes. Post away. He wants the traffic. If you aren't happy here there are plenty of other forums out there to choose from. MUFON, Ufomania, what's left of Open Minds, plus the new one the former mods from there are creating...there are thousands of forums all over the internet that would cater to just about anybody. This forum is what it is because that is the way that I and the rest of the members here want it to be. Nobody is being forced to take part in it. If you would like to stay here and make a positive contribution then you are more than welcome to. If you are not happy being here then you could choose to leave and go someplace else. It's entirely your decision. Nobody here is attacking you or trying to force you to do anything, they are only responding to what you say to them.
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Post by ufo4peace on Dec 7, 2011 3:31:01 GMT -6
I accept that files can tell you much often by what they don't tell you. Or should I not bother you with facts? Steve Actually the files would tell you what the AF wanted you to think like a lot of the AF cover stories following a UFO flap. Mechanical failure instead of being zapped by a UFO. Top secret information is just that top secret. Let's take a look Colonel Robert Willingham. He looks about as old as my Grandfather in a retirement home. Why would he be lying? His story seems plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 13:04:34 GMT -6
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Post by skywalker on Dec 7, 2011 23:21:41 GMT -6
Actually the files would tell you what the AF wanted you to think like a lot of the AF cover stories following a UFO flap. Mechanical failure instead of being zapped by a UFO. Top secret information is just that top secret. Let's take a look Colonel Robert Willingham. He looks about as old as my Grandfather in a retirement home. Why would he be lying? His story seems plausible. I found a site that has some info on Colonel Robert Willingham, including part of a 1968 article that tells his original story. www.area51et.com/full-disclosure-breaking-news/ufo-crashes-and-len-stringfield/Here is a brief description of the Del Rio UFO incident as reported in an issue of Skylook back in 1968... Col. R. B. Willingham, CAP squadron commander, has had an avid interest in UFO’s for years, dating back to 1948 when he was leading a squadron of F-94 jets near the Mexican border in Texas and was advised by radio that three UFO’s "flying formation" were near. He picked them up on his plane radar and was informed one of the UFO’s had crashed a few miles away from him in Mexico. He went to the scene of the crash but was prevented by the Mexican authorities from making an investigation or coming any closer than 60 feet. From that vantage point the wreckage seemed to consist of "numerous pieces of metal polished on the outside, very rough on the inner sides."It says that Willingham was a "colonel" in the CAP, or Civilian Air Patrol, which is not the same as actually being in the Air Force. The author of the article also says that Willingham has repeatedly changed his story, including the year that it happened. "When I attempted to verify the "colonel’s" credentials, all I could learn was that he had been a low ranking enlisted soldier who entered the service in December 1945 and was released from active duty in January 1947.
I have learned that the this colonel, the Pennsylvania man, was an officer in the Civil Air Patrol who has now changed the date of the crash to 1954, or 1955, or maybe 1957. He wasn’t flying F-94s out of Dyess because the F-94 didn’t exist as an operational fighter in 1948 and Dyess didn’t exist in 1948. He has made many changes to the original story as some of his "facts" were found to be inaccurate. "I also just read an article by Kevin Randle in the current issue (#157) of UFO Magazine where he says that he tried to find evidence of Willingham's claim that he had served as a Colonel in the Air Force. Randle writes, "...I had searched all of the appropriate data bases, gone through the various archives, including the one in St. Louis, looking for any documentation... I had been in touch with the flight schools in San Antonio where he would have trained--and where Willingham told me he trained--through the officer registries, through the archives in Denver, and found nothing to support his claims."He later mentions a talk he had with Stanton Friedman and he claims that Stan "...made it clear that he believed that Robert Willingham was being less than candid about his UFO experiences..." It would appear that Friedman thinks Willingham is lying also. You asked why would he be lying? I don't know why people lie, but they do. People lie on the internet about their stories, they lie to UFO investigators about their UFO sightings, they make fake photos and videos and try to perpetrate hoaxes...even the investigators lie some times. Many times witnesses will embellish their accounts over time to make them sound even more dramatic than they actually were. From the reading that I have done about this incident Willingham never actually saw the UFO crash...he tracked it on his radar and he was told by the radar operators that it might have crashed and he later flew back to the supposed crash site to see the wreckage but he apparently never got a look at it because whatever it was had been covered up with a tarp and was being guarded by either Mexican police or military soldiers...and that is only if he is even telling the truth about that. As far as I know there is no other corroborating evidence that this incident even occurred. All we have to go on is Willingham's story which may or may not be truthful.
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2011 2:56:43 GMT -6
Thanks Sky.
Steve
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