Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 15:47:06 GMT -6
I agree. The more thorough an investigation is the less chance that something will be overlooked. People should use everything at their disposal to gather info. I've found some pretty interesting things on Google Earth myself. Touched, if you happen to find those old images with the arrow I would like to see them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Go to Google Earth. Type in Langtry Texas. Then go down south of the Rio Grande, and you should see a blue " i" indicator which says 1955 ufo crash. Go slightly southwest of that location at these coordinates using the historical feature back to 1996. 29* 47'51.51'N 101 *33'31.16"W . Elev.1292 ft. You should see an arrow pointing southward . @ skywalker: The arrow can only be seen if you go back to the 1996 image. Its .4 of a mile wide by 1/2 a mile long, its a pretty big feature and was made with precision, its cool. The other image from terra server shows a square feature which almost looks as if an excavation of the site was done. hmmm
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 11, 2011 21:15:54 GMT -6
I didn't see any arrow but I did see the square you were talking about. It looks like all of the trees were removed from that area for some reason. It's hard to say why without actually going there and looking at it in person. It might just be somebody's cow or goat pen. I admit it is kind of interesting though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 22:43:47 GMT -6
Thats the arrow almost dead center but thats the latest imagery available. If you go back in time to 1996 at that exact same spot, youll see the arrow defined. I can see some of it but its altered in this latest image youve posted.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 12, 2011 4:21:39 GMT -6
Here is another video of another interview that Willingham gave. In this one the crash event supposedly occurred in 1950 and he said he was flying out of San Angelo. Actually the local news report states 1950 and he never mentions San Angelo.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 12, 2011 4:45:43 GMT -6
Satellite photos can be very useful. I use them in my investigations all the time so I can see what is in the area where the sighting occurred. In an arid location like west texas any marks that were made by vehicles or crashing spaceships very likely would still be visible, unless somebody intentionally covered them up, and if that were the case the attempted cover-up likely would still be visible also. The dude who found those pieces of metal at Roswell looked at satellite photos of the area and said that the terrain appeared to show the gouges that supposedly were made when the object crashed. He said that it was a perfect match to what the original witnesses described. I don't see anything south of Langtry that looks like what Willingham described. I also still don't see any evidence to support his claims that the incident even occurred. If I ever do find any I will be more than happy to go down there personally and scour the place with a fine toothed comb, a microscope and a metal detector but so far there is no convincing evidence that any UFO crash took place. I doubt you are looking at the exact location or anything would be apparent after they covered their trails 50 some odd years ago. In 50+ years time a lot of things could happen to an area. You may just be seeing that instead if you are even looking at the right place south of the border.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 12, 2011 5:05:14 GMT -6
Actually the local news report states 1950 and he never mentions San Angelo. The reporter said Willingham claimed he was flying out of San Angelo. It's at the 3.34 mark on the video. Just about every story I've read about this incident says something different. Either Willingham keeps changing his story or it is extremely sloppy journalism by all of the people reporting on it.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 12, 2011 5:12:35 GMT -6
I doubt you are looking at the exact location or anything would be apparent after they covered their trails 50 some odd years ago. In 50+ years time a lot of things could happen to an area. You may just be seeing that instead if you are even looking at the right place south of the border. I agree that it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine where the crash might have occurred just by listening to somebody tell a story about it...especially after such a long period of time. If what he said is true though it should be somewhere in that general vicinity. Maybe not where the square is but somewhere close by. He said it was directly south across the river from Langtry. He also said that it first hit about 200 yards from the river bank and then bounced about a thousand yards. That would put it within a mile from the river.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2011 8:22:05 GMT -6
Actually the local news report states 1950 and he never mentions San Angelo. The reporter said Willingham claimed he was flying out of San Angelo. It's at the 3.34 mark on the video. Just about every story I've read about this incident says something different. Either Willingham keeps changing his story or it is extremely sloppy journalism by all of the people reporting on it. Willingham does keep changing his story. If his military records have 'disappeared', he still could at least pitch his own consistent story at least. If Willingham flew F-86's ever, there would definitely be a record in many places. Squadron and Wing records. If he had his event in 1950, he was flying the latest hot jet, and would likely be flying with a Fighter Wing in Korea or stationed in Europe. I think he would have remembered that! If any of this is true, and it looks more and more doubtful by the second, the event would have occurred in 1955, not 50. Something so profound, you would at least remember the year it occurred wouldn't it? Willingham mentions too being in the CAP. Civil Air Patrol (CAP) is a Congressionally chartered, federally supported, non-profit corporation that serves as the official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force (USAF). Here is another source for records, yet nothing reportedly exists there too. If missing records, someone would have remembered him at least, neighbors, anyone. Maybe there never were records in the first place. I think more and more Willingham is likely a fraud. Why do people lie? As Sky wrote, many reasons. Why do people fabricate being in the Navy Seals? Such people have personal issues. Issues the authors researching their book should have easily recognized in time. The authors are suspect too, out to sell a quick book. Sifting through ufology is sadly knowing what to ignore. Stick to someone like Leslie Kean who's agenda of promoting the serious scientific study of UFOs focuses primarily only on the most credible of cases. Steve
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 12, 2011 11:47:41 GMT -6
I wonder if there are actually two different incidents involved here and people keep getting them confused? We have a lot of people claiming that a Del Rio crash occurred in 1950 because the MJ-12 documents say so. Then we have Willingham come out with a story that he witnessed a crash south of Langtry (which is close to Del Rio) probably in 1955. Maybe the people who are investigating and reporting on these two incidents keep getting them confused with each other because they assume they are the same thing. That might explain why Willingham is so confused about the date.
The 1950 crash is only supported by the MJ-12 documents, which many people still have questions about whether or not they are authentic, so it may not have even happened. Then there is Willingham telling his story and the only evidence that it occurred is his testimony. When people try to put the two together they think they have a case where one supports the other, but if you look at them separately there is little or no evidence to support either of them.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 12, 2011 19:40:39 GMT -6
Actually the local news report states 1950 and he never mentions San Angelo. The reporter said Willingham claimed he was flying out of San Angelo. It's at the 3.34 mark on the video. Just about every story I've read about this incident says something different. Either Willingham keeps changing his story or it is extremely sloppy journalism by all of the people reporting on it. The witness actually names a city or town close to Fort Worth that supports what he says in a video I posted. You also leave out crucial information like he suffered from a stroke that may have affected is memory. The news reporter then points to an affidavit from the 1970s. It also shows vintage photographs of him near planes. One thing I learned researching UFOs is the witness testimony is the most valuable. Especially right after the incident. Don't always trust what you read in an article or how info is reported because it may not be accurate.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 12, 2011 19:56:49 GMT -6
@ Steve
Where does he state 1950?!
You guys need to write down everything the witness states and then compare. If a witness is very elderly you need to take into account his age and mental condition. What is stated is his affidavit from the 1970s? How legit are the awards and documents that were on display hanging on his wall? Dont just leave out info because you want to look smart trying to discredit someone.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 12, 2011 20:08:25 GMT -6
I'm not trying to discredit the dude...I'm just trying to get the info straight. I mentioned before in one of my earlier posts that he had a stroke and that it was affecting his memory. That's why I am now wondering if people are actually talking about two different incidents.
In the video the reporter stated it happened in 1950 but in the other interview Willingham said it was 1955. I've also read other articles that have given different dates but 50 and 55 are the most common. I'm starting to think that maybe when the people interview Willingham he may be telling them it occurred in 1955 but the reporters just assume that he is a senile old man who had a stroke and can't remember anything and since they think it occurred in a different year they just automatically change the date when they make the video or write the article. This could be why Willingham appears to keep changing the date. It may not be him that is doing it but the people who are interviewing him.
Also the lack of military records could be because he was in the CAP instead of the actual Air Force. Has anybody actually searched the CAP records to see if he is listed in there?
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 12, 2011 20:21:13 GMT -6
The only cities I remember hearing him mention are Fort Worth (which is where Carswell AFB is located) and Corsicana (which is just southwest of Dallas). That's where he said he drove to in order to get the little plane to fly down to Langtry. It was the reporter who said he was flying out of San Angelo, and another reporter who said he was flying out of Abilene. What we have here may be a case of irresponsible journalism. These reporters can't get their facts straight...which is pretty much typical of journalists. There still doesn't appear to be any other evidence than Willingham's testimony though, and without corroborating evidence there is no way to know how accurate his testimony is.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2011 22:02:54 GMT -6
All valid questions Sky. Basic stuff the authors of the Del Rio Crash book should have covered. No more enlightened, just $29.99 lighter. But on Amazon you can get a copy for $12.66. Amazon says "Shocking eyewitness testimony that is just as riveting as the story of the 1947 Roswell UFO crash. On a clear spring day in 1955, Air Force pilot Robert Willingham was flying an F-86 fighter jet across West Texas when he saw an object "as bright as a star" streak past him and then execute a 90-degree turn going 2,000 miles per hour. Giving chase in his jet, the decorated World War II and Korean War veteran watched in awe as the object suddenly plummeted to Earth near Del Rio, Texas. Soon after, he visited the crash site and saw a large, silver UFO impacted into the side of a sandy hill. Nothing could have prepared him for what happened next, as his life was about to change forever. Foreword by Dr. Bruce Maccabee, veteran UFO researcher and bestselling author." Steve
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 1:27:15 GMT -6
The only cities I remember hearing him mention are Fort Worth (which is where Carswell AFB is located) and Corsicana (which is just southwest of Dallas). That's where he said he drove to in order to get the little plane to fly down to Langtry. Lol. You got to be kidding.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 1:53:03 GMT -6
The reporter said Willingham claimed he was flying out of San Angelo. It's at the 3.34 mark on the video. I recognize that reporter. That's a local FOX news station in Dallas. Willingham does keep changing his story. If his military records have 'disappeared', he still could at least pitch his own consistent story at least. If Willingham flew F-86's ever, there would definitely be a record in many places. Squadron and Wing records. If he had his event in 1950, he was flying the latest hot jet, and would likely be flying with a Fighter Wing in Korea or stationed in Europe. I think he would have remembered that! If any of this is true, and it looks more and more doubtful by the second, the event would have occurred in 1955, not 50. Something so profound, you would at least remember the year it occurred wouldn't it? Lol. Where does Willingham say the year 1950? Willingham mentions too being in the CAP. Civil Air Patrol (CAP) is a Congressionally chartered, federally supported, non-profit corporation that serves as the official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force (USAF). Here is another source for records, yet nothing reportedly exists there too. If missing records, someone would have remembered him at least, neighbors, anyone. Maybe there never were records in the first place. I think more and more Willingham is likely a fraud. There are vintage photos of him in uniform, one posing by a plane. Why do people lie? As Sky wrote, many reasons. Why do people fabricate being in the Navy Seals? Such people have personal issues. Issues the authors researching their book should have easily recognized in time. The authors are suspect too, out to sell a quick book. Steve Unless he likes playing dress up circa the 1950s I think you're way off.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 2:24:54 GMT -6
It appears he has a photo album.
At the 3:34 mark there is a vintage photo of his Willingham wearing either an Air Force uniform or a CAP uniform. Unlike Steve I don't profess to be an aviation expert but that's pretty easy to figure out just from looking at Air Force and CAP uniforms from that era.
Willingham opens up the scrap book at the 4:19 mark and there he is again in uniform posing in front of a car.
There he is again at the 4:34 mark with a jacket and cap on posing in front of a plane.
At the 5:01 mark. There he is standing with two fellow soldiers at an what appears to be an airport. They are wearing different flight suits/coveralls/uniforms.
Are the uniforms AF or CAP?
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 2:51:43 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 4:36:21 GMT -6
Let me dissect the Willingham case: If the case is true it most likely happened in the mid to late 1950s. 1955-1958 You can rule out 1950 because of the B-47 part of his story. www.ufodigest.com/news/0310/del-rio-print.php"Determined to return to the crash site in a smaller plane that he could land along the riverbank, Willingham returned to his squadron and asked permission to go back to base. After returning to Carswell AFB, Willingham turned in his jet and picked up a small, two-seater training plane, which he and a man named Jack Perkins, now deceased, piloted back down to where the UFO had crashed." It appears I was wrong on the word "Breckenridge" I can't make out what he's saying and it doesn't fit the context of the sentence. I can make out "We got on a light air craft.." and "Permission to leave Carswell AFB" which supports his story. In this Rense interview he seems very old. I wouldn't be surprised if he's not remembering details correctly. Kevin Randle's blog: kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2010/07/del-rio-ufo-crash-and-mj-12.html- He originally told the story, in the late 1960s, to a reporter in Pennsylvania who was asking Civil Air Patrol (CAP) pilots about UFO sightings. We know that Willingham told his story to a reporter in the late 1960s Kevin Randle puts his military record into question but what about the photos in his photo album? Photos: From photo album: It would be interesting to look at the photos in is photo album pictured above. It may explain his military record if you look at the uniform.
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 13, 2011 12:42:02 GMT -6
The only cities I remember hearing him mention are Fort Worth (which is where Carswell AFB is located) and Corsicana (which is just southwest of Dallas). That's where he said he drove to in order to get the little plane to fly down to Langtry. Lol. You got to be kidding. Dude, I'm not just making this stuff up. That's what he said in the video... It's right at the 7.40 mark. He said "I got in the car and went down to Corsicana...where I used to fly out of that base down there...and picked up a light aircraft and flew down to where the crash was." He did say Breckenridge... "We got in a light aircraft 'cause it didn't get too far below us out of Breckenridge down there...It was just on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande down there." He was talking about where they first sighted the ufo, which was just south of Breckenridge.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2011 14:35:55 GMT -6
A photo is a piece of something at least. It says much. The name tags on shirt breast pocket appear to read Willingham, and Civil Air Patrol. The gold emblem on his cap shows he is a major. Note on the other side of Willingham's shirt displays only 'observer wing' insignia (half a wing symbol) on the other breast pocket, (these are not pilot wings). The two top photos in the earlier post are the same ones, just flipped horizontally. It shows him posing next to a team member of the USAF Thunderbirds (the gray flight suit) probably at an air-show in Texas somewhere. No proof of front-line USAF service though. Do a search of CAP uniform insignia to check for yourself. The uniform is very telling. I think Willingham was never a pilot, but quite active in the Texas CAP only. No pilots wings, if he came from the regular USAF, he would be proudly showing his pilot wings insignia having once flown F-86's allegedly in 1955. I think this photo alone answers the questions about the credibility of this case. With U4P's demonstrated disdain for all things military, important clues are right in front of you. UFO researchers need to familiarize themselves. This gentleman shows an obvious love for aviation, but was not a pilot when this photo was taken or prior to it. Photo taken in 1964 which from the look of it fits too. A psychology of perhaps an unfulfilled dream of wishing to be a pilot may have much to do with his UFO crash claims. I hope he did get his pilots license one day, but he was not a pilot in 1955. If so, his air force wings would be displayed in the photo. Steve wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=CAP_uniform_history
|
|
|
Post by skywalker on Dec 13, 2011 18:56:14 GMT -6
Did it say somewhere that the photo was taken in 1964? I was reading through that CAP uniform history site that you posted the link for and it said that the metal name tags were introduced in 1967. It looks like the tags in the photo are the metal variety.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 19:45:55 GMT -6
Thanks for identifying the color photo from the 1960s. Everyone knows he was in the CAP but what about the black and white photos in his photo album. Are those CAP or USAF? It's in the video.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 23:19:06 GMT -6
Lol. You got to be kidding. Dude, I'm not just making this stuff up. That's what he said in the video... It's right at the 7.40 mark. He said "I got in the car and went down to Corsicana...where I used to fly out of that base down there...and picked up a light aircraft and flew down to where the crash was." He did say Breckenridge... "We got in a light aircraft 'cause it didn't get too far below us out of Breckenridge down there...It was just on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande down there." He was talking about where they first sighted the ufo, which was just south of Breckenridge. You're right. I thought he meant where he took off but it's in reference to the UFO.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 23:21:12 GMT -6
Did it say somewhere that the photo was taken in 1964? I was reading through that CAP uniform history site that you posted the link for and it said that the metal name tags were introduced in 1967. It looks like the tags in the photo are the metal variety. Kevin Randles blog had the story surfacing in the late 60s when he was with CAP but the video contains older photos of him in different uniform, one posing by a plane.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 13, 2011 23:36:16 GMT -6
With U4P's demonstrated disdain for all things military, important clues are right in front of you. UFO researchers need to familiarize themselves. You mean to tell me you never noticed his photo's that are all over the internet but went through the trouble of checking his military records? For a case you brought up and looked into you seem clueless regarding certain aspects of this case. I'll start a new thread about Willingham and lay it all out there. The information has to be source. If a reporter makes a statement it's not the same as a witness making a statement. If you are going to prove or disprove something you have to be meticulous.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 14, 2011 3:20:08 GMT -6
He did say Breckenridge... "We got in a light aircraft 'cause it didn't get too far below us out of Breckenridge down there...It was just on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande down there." /quote] You're right. I thought he meant where he took off but it's in reference to the UFO. On second thought now that I'm analyzing the "FOX 4 News (Dallas): The Tex Files: Del Rio Flying Saucer Mystery by Richard Ray" it sounds like he's saying brack....something. I can't tell for sure. His words are too low and muffled with that X-files theme music playing in the background. I would say that particular word is inconclusive. Also from taking notes on Richard Ray's news segment I'm starting to see a red flag. It seems Willingham is the victim of a journalist trying to piece three separate UFO cases together (it shouldn't be too surprising since it's a FOX news affiliate). " Todd Zechel claims to have a document that proves the Carswell team also did crash recovery of an object south of Del Rio, the date: Dec., 6 1950 Five decades later at least on witness survives, we found him" The reporter is trying to tie three separate UFO events together on one particular date. Willingham to the reporter is a surviving witness to the Del Rio UFO crash of 1950 but Willingham never mentions the date 1950, nor Del Rio nor does he say San Angelo, Texas. That was all done in the editing room by the reporter Richard Ray probably from reading notes. Was Willigham flying over San Angelo when he spotted the UFO instead of out of San Angelo or did he even say the word San Angelo? That was something added in by the reporter trying to connect the dots. If you listen to what Willigham says though his story is consistent. There's also something about Willingham I noticed analyzing the Rense interview. "Four of us out of Dallas, or out of Fort Worth" Responding to flying cover, you and how many fellow pilots? "Mexican government troops" "Spanish soldiers" "Spanish lieutenant" Here are examples of him misspeaking. He catches himself saying the word Dallas and corrects it to Fort Worth. Instead of Spanish he means Mexican. I don't think this is intentional but it has more to do with his current mental capacity.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 14, 2011 3:27:11 GMT -6
With U4P's demonstrated disdain for all things military, important clues are right in front of you. UFO researchers need to familiarize themselves. You mean to tell me you never noticed his photo's that are all over the internet but went through the trouble of checking his military records? For a case you brought up and looked into you seem clueless regarding certain aspects of this case. I'll start a new thread about Willingham and lay it all out there. The information has to be source. If a reporter makes a statement it's not the same as a witness making a statement. If you are going to prove or disprove something you have to be meticulous. Wrong again. You brought up this case. So relieved your here to re-educate us. Steve
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 14, 2011 3:43:08 GMT -6
You mean to tell me you never noticed his photo's that are all over the internet but went through the trouble of checking his military records? For a case you brought up and looked into you seem clueless regarding certain aspects of this case. I'll start a new thread about Willingham and lay it all out there. The information has to be source. If a reporter makes a statement it's not the same as a witness making a statement. If you are going to prove or disprove something you have to be meticulous. Wrong again. You brought up this case. So relieved your here to re-educate us. Steve Steve, I didn't bring up the Willingham case but the shoot-down subject. Also read what I just posted about a reporter trying to tie three 1950 UFO cases together and also Willingham misspeaking.
|
|
|
Post by ufo4peace on Dec 14, 2011 5:18:16 GMT -6
For more on the Willingham case I created a thread. Robert Willingham AnalysisIt appears the earlier date (1950) was attributed to UFOlogist ( W. T. Zechel) trying to make him a witness to the Del Rio crash. This would explain Richard Ray Fox 4 news segment. I'm now going over Kevin Randle's blog post. All future info regarding this case will be in the dedicated thread.
|
|