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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 21:57:34 GMT -6
YES! MUFON will greatly miss Steve. He's one of the reasons why I re-joined MUFON and one of the reasons why I didn't renew my membership after he was so poorly treated. The key thing MUFON seems to have forgotten is the organization was pretty well run by volunteers. YOU can not demand or require anything from volunteers. You can ASK but you can not DEMAND. MDaisy Very true, Mdaisy. So what can they possibly gain by getting rid of a lot of their best people? Unless it is to make the rest of them easier to control.
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Post by auntym on Mar 11, 2011 21:58:10 GMT -6
I personally think it is the government that has their hands around MUFON's throat. But since money is power and many businessmen have much influence with politicians, it could go either way. So the question would then be is Bigelow working for the government or is the government working for people like BIgelow? Whoever it is that's in charge is the ones controlling MUFON and deciding their fate. i always believed the statement...."follow the money"
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Post by lois on Mar 11, 2011 21:59:06 GMT -6
They still have all the reports as I went to see a few months ago. It is open to the public..Mine report was 15 years ago.
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Post by auntym on Mar 11, 2011 22:01:47 GMT -6
YES! MUFON will greatly miss Steve. He's one of the reasons why I re-joined MUFON and one of the reasons why I didn't renew my membership after he was so poorly treated. The key thing MUFON seems to have forgotten is the organization was pretty well run by volunteers. YOU can not demand or require anything from volunteers. You can ASK but you can not DEMAND. MDaisy Very true, Mdaisy. So what can they possibly gain by getting rid of a lot of their best people? Unless it is to make the rest of them easier to control. BINGO!
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:01:48 GMT -6
Morgan, there is NO QUESTION the abductions are going on, lots of them, lots. NO QUESTION. It is the most important thing happening (outside the government). I pay a lot of attention to the MILABS, I used to anyway. I want to find out what is the relationship between the ETs and the coverup. Due to 3 cases I published in JAR, I came to understand that the coverup and the ETs are working together on some of the abductions. This shocked me to my core. But I realize it is true. However, I don't know where it is headed. That is, I don't know what the ultimate aim of the US is.
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:02:24 GMT -6
They still have all the reports as I went to see a few months ago. It is open to the public..Mine report was 15 years ago. Those are just the original reports. They never release the results of the investigations. They print a few in the journal but most never see the light of day. They need to be releasing the results of ALL of them, otherwise what is the point of investigating?
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sansseed
Full Member
Failure is not an option
Posts: 417
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Post by sansseed on Mar 11, 2011 22:02:26 GMT -6
Now what if you were the USG and you wanted information to keep flowing into MUFON, but not all of it to get out. The pattern we're seeing is consistent with that. See, the idea of MUFON is MUFON is supposed to publish EVERYTHING they get. MUFON is supposed to tell the American people what is going on, what the phenomena is doing in the US. So along comes Bigelow. He tells MUFON I'll give you $672,000. All you have to do is go to work for me and give me all your information for a year. That made possible the creation of the "Star Team," which is an elite investigator group with rapid response. Bigelow paid them salaries. This alone makes me sad. I seriously thought of making a report, but then the forum shut down. Then being here on this forum, and hearing what Steve and others had to say and the back stories made me reject that idea. The last thing I want to do is report it to USG, or even anything that might even look like USG. Can we not have an open and free informational UFO investigation organization?
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:04:46 GMT -6
Morgan, there is NO QUESTION the abductions are going on, lots of them, lots. NO QUESTION. It is the most important thing happening (outside the government). I pay a lot of attention to the MILABS, I used to anyway. I want to find out what is the relationship between the ETs and the coverup. Due to 3 cases I published in JAR, I came to understand that the coverup and the ETs are working together on some of the abductions. This shocked me to my core. But I realize it is true. However, I don't know where it is headed. That is, I don't know what the ultimate aim of the US is. You don't have to convince me about the abductions. I have experienced them myself. So have a lot of people here. I think that is one of the reasons why we are here...to try to find out the truth about what is really going on.
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Post by Steve on Mar 11, 2011 22:06:31 GMT -6
I think the gov't isn't concerned about mufon as mufon is concerned about it's appearance associated with it. Most of the BOD in mufon are ex military intel. This is not a rumor, it was told to me by a number of the board members themselves. A coincidence? No.
Fundamentally, mufon has only one real problem It's BOD. From this stems it's unaccountability to it's members, it's financial concerns which stem from the leadership not being transparent. Members leave, tired of being disrespected for their ideas and skills. The arrogance of these *bleep* at the top in everything that is wrong with mufon, their secrecy and sense they need to withhold and control information that is helpful to the FI's in the field. No analysis of cases. An open loop. So this means no learning curve or institutional memory from what is learned to apply in knowing which new cases to focus on and what to ignore. The same endless waste of investigating lights in the sky reports. And any physical trace cases investigated...the samples waste away in someones garage forever. incredible!
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:08:46 GMT -6
Morgan--your question is bigelow working for the USG or is the USG working for Bigelow. My answer: the ET presence is a matter of state. It is a matter of national security. It is the highest matter of national security in history. The USG is not working for Bigelow. I am a liberal. We liberals have always worked on the theme of big business "capturing" the government, and that's fine in normal times. But this is not normal. Just because there are large corporations working in the cover up to get on top of alien technology--there are always contractors in government operations--but I don't get confused as to whose priorities are at stake here. It is the government's priorities because there is a presence on this planet which we do not control and that is the problem the USG is trying to cope with.
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:13:44 GMT -6
I think the gov't isn't concerned about mufon as mufon is concerned about it's appearance associated with it. Most of the BOD in mufon are ex military intel. This is not a rumor, it was told to me by a number of the board members themselves. A coincidence? No. Fundamentally, mufon has only one real problem It's BOD. From this stems it's unaccountability to it's members, it's financial concerns which stem from the leadership not being transparent. Members leave, tired of being disrespected for their ideas and skills. The arrogance of these *blank-holes* at the top in everything that is wrong with mufon, their secrecy and sense they need to withhold and control information that is helpful to the FI's in the field. No analysis of cases. An open loop. So this means no learning curve or institutional memory from what is learned to apply in knowing which new cases to focus on and what to ignore. The same endless waste of investigating lights in the sky reports. And any physical trace cases investigated...the samples waste away in someones garage forever. incredible! I agree that the problem with MUFON is the BoD. They have supreme power and are accountable to nobody...but they are not even going to think of giving that power up. So how exactly can MUFON be reformed by the members if the members have no power?
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:16:43 GMT -6
Morgan--your question is bigelow working for the USG or is the USG working for Bigelow. My answer: the ET presence is a matter of state. It is a matter of national security. It is the highest matter of national security in history. The USG is not working for Bigelow. I am a liberal. We liberals have always worked on the theme of big business "capturing" the government, and that's fine in normal times. But this is not normal. Just because there are large corporations working in the cover up to get on top of alien technology--there are always contractors in government operations--but I don't get confused as to whose priorities are at stake here. It is the government's priorities because there is a presence on this planet which we do not control and that is the problem the USG is trying to cope with. That makes sense. So Bigelow is just acting as a front man for the government while hoping to reap some benifits for his aerospace company...but it is the Gov who is calling the shots.
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Post by auntym on Mar 11, 2011 22:19:41 GMT -6
Morgan--your question is bigelow working for the USG or is the USG working for Bigelow. My answer: the ET presence is a matter of state. It is a matter of national security. It is the highest matter of national security in history. The USG is not working for Bigelow. I am a liberal. We liberals have always worked on the theme of big business "capturing" the government, and that's fine in normal times. But this is not normal. Just because there are large corporations working in the cover up to get on top of alien technology--there are always contractors in government operations--but I don't get confused as to whose priorities are at stake here. It is the government's priorities because there is a presence on this planet which we do not control and that is the problem the USG is trying to cope with. That makes sense. So Bigelow is just acting as a front man for the government while hoping to reap some benifits for his aerospace company...but it is the Gov who is calling the shots. this i believe....
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:20:34 GMT -6
Re MUFON, I have half a notion if there is an intel operation running MUFON, it is for the purpose of yes, keeping too much information from getting out of MUFON, but also to get control of MUFON in case there was a "contingency" and MUFON had to be shut down--in some kind of an emergency. All through the years, we always assumed (in MUFON) there was govt agents in the organization--but I anyway never got the feeling they were trying to control MUFON. But for the last 5 years, I do get the feeling the govt--and who else would it be?-- is trying to control MUFON. The scenario I laid out--keep MUFON collecting info just make sure much of it doesn't get out--see, the situation post-Bigelow is the Star Team is still operating--without the honest eyes. Star Team members have to sign an agreement. We call it the gagged-for-life agreement. It says any case you are "deployed" on, you will never speak or write about, ever. I mentioned the climate of fear. These folks, these investigators, they like what they are doing. they like being deployed on cases, they like being part of a team, they like the structure of the organization. I understand that. But because they don't want to be fired and thrown out of the organization, they can be controlled. MUFON even threatens them with (unspecified) "disciplinary action" if they violate the confidentiality agreement. So I say, the control mechanism is the Star Team.
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sansseed
Full Member
Failure is not an option
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Post by sansseed on Mar 11, 2011 22:20:58 GMT -6
I think the gov't isn't concerned about mufon as mufon is concerned about it's appearance associated with it. Most of the BOD in mufon are ex military intel. This is not a rumor, it was told to me by a number of the board members themselves. A coincidence? No. Fundamentally, mufon has only one real problem It's BOD. From this stems it's unaccountability to it's members, it's financial concerns which stem from the leadership not being transparent. Members leave, tired of being disrespected for their ideas and skills. The arrogance of these *blank-holes* at the top in everything that is wrong with mufon, their secrecy and sense they need to withhold and control information that is helpful to the FI's in the field. No analysis of cases. An open loop. So this means no learning curve or institutional memory from what is learned to apply in knowing which new cases to focus on and what to ignore. The same endless waste of investigating lights in the sky reports. And any physical trace cases investigated...the samples waste away in someones garage forever. incredible! I agree that the problem with MUFON is the BoD. They have supreme power and are accountable to nobody...but they are not even going to think of giving that power up. So how exactly can MUFON be reformed by the members if the members have no power? The question becomes..., how do you choke the power of the BOD? Investigators will leave, but (and I mean no callous here) others will step into their place. If the issue is with the top, then how do you make the top ineffective?
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Post by auntym on Mar 11, 2011 22:25:51 GMT -6
I agree that the problem with MUFON is the BoD. They have supreme power and are accountable to nobody...but they are not even going to think of giving that power up. So how exactly can MUFON be reformed by the members if the members have no power? The question becomes..., how do you choke the power of the BOD? Investigators will leave, but (and I mean no callous here) others will step into their place. If the issue is with the top, then how do you make the top ineffective?[/color] my guess would be making them look bad....that works both ways....look how bad mufon looks now.... their reputation is in the toilet...
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:26:30 GMT -6
Dear MDaisy, I regret to inform you you most certainly can demand from volunteers. Volunteers behave much like salaried employees. If you cultivate an authoritarian environment, they fall right in line. Not all do. Some, like Steve R, quit. but many remain, and if you assume a posture toward them as though you had a right to give them orders, they fall right in line with it. that is what is going on in MUFON now. The climate has been cultivated. Chuck Reever (mentioned) had a lot to do with it. A key part of cultivating this environment is ranking, stiff, rigid ranking. One person gives orders to you, and you (it seems) then have the right to give order to the person "below" you. I am showing you the psychology of it.
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sansseed
Full Member
Failure is not an option
Posts: 417
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Post by sansseed on Mar 11, 2011 22:27:09 GMT -6
Re MUFON, I have half a notion if there is an intel operation running MUFON, it is for the purpose of yes, keeping too much information from getting out of MUFON, but also to get control of MUFON in case there was a "contingency" and MUFON had to be shut down--in some kind of an emergency. All through the years, we always assumed (in MUFON) there was govt agents in the organization--but I anyway never got the feeling they were trying to control MUFON. But for the last 5 years, I do get the feeling the govt--and who else would it be?-- is trying to control MUFON. The scenario I laid out--keep MUFON collecting info just make sure much of it doesn't get out--see, the situation post-Bigelow is the Star Team is still operating--without the honest eyes. Star Team members have to sign an agreement. We call it the gagged-for-life agreement. It says any case you are "deployed" on, you will never speak or write about, ever. I mentioned the climate of fear. These folks, these investigators, they like what they are doing. they like being deployed on cases, they like being part of a team, they like the structure of the organization. I understand that. But because they don't want to be fired and thrown out of the organization, they can be controlled. MUFON even threatens them with (unspecified) "disciplinary action" if they violate the confidentiality agreement. So I say, the control mechanism is the Star Team. Wow. This is certainly some info I need to chew on. Thank you.
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:27:12 GMT -6
Re MUFON, I have half a notion if there is an intel operation running MUFON, it is for the purpose of yes, keeping too much information from getting out of MUFON, but also to get control of MUFON in case there was a "contingency" and MUFON had to be shut down--in some kind of an emergency. All through the years, we always assumed (in MUFON) there was govt agents in the organization--but I anyway never got the feeling they were trying to control MUFON. But for the last 5 years, I do get the feeling the govt--and who else would it be?-- is trying to control MUFON. The scenario I laid out--keep MUFON collecting info just make sure much of it doesn't get out--see, the situation post-Bigelow is the Star Team is still operating--without the honest eyes. Star Team members have to sign an agreement. We call it the gagged-for-life agreement. It says any case you are "deployed" on, you will never speak or write about, ever. I mentioned the climate of fear. These folks, these investigators, they like what they are doing. they like being deployed on cases, they like being part of a team, they like the structure of the organization. I understand that. But because they don't want to be fired and thrown out of the organization, they can be controlled. MUFON even threatens them with (unspecified) "disciplinary action" if they violate the confidentiality agreement. So I say, the control mechanism is the Star Team. So what do you think has happened in the last five years to change the situation so that it has become that much more serious that the USG is now basically showing their hand to everybody? It's like they are not even trying to hide it anymore. Has the situation with ET and abductions changed that dramatically?
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Post by Steve on Mar 11, 2011 22:31:02 GMT -6
Sic the IRS on them. That money the BOD set asside? Still Nonprofit?
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sansseed
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Failure is not an option
Posts: 417
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Post by sansseed on Mar 11, 2011 22:31:53 GMT -6
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:33:12 GMT -6
Somebody is just liable to do that, but if the USG really is pulling MUFON's strings it won't do any good. That might be something the government would do to gain even more control.
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Post by Steve on Mar 11, 2011 22:35:06 GMT -6
If the case, it will become self evident
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:35:57 GMT -6
Morgan--your question is, How is the Committee to Reform MUFON going to cause the Board of Directors to give up their right to appoint themselves and submit to democratic elections? Everyone is asking us that. We are not sure we can to that, but for some reason we are deeply engaged in trying. The way we have been going about it is to bring searching points before the members, raising the taboo issues nobody is supposed to talk about. For example, you say how can we get the Board to do that? Well, for starters, we're saying they should. Nobody in MUFON would dare to even say that. So for sure, if nobody can say it, it's not going to happen. So we're saying it. Beyond that, we are challenging the right MUFON is asserting to give everybody orders. There is a thing called the Background check form. that is something everyone in MUFON who is a field investigator is REQUIRED to sign. We're going to be telling the members in an email soon--Stop signing the damm thing!!! We're going to tell the members: Mufon has NO intention of doing a backgrund check on you. Know why? It costs $225! Therefore, the background check form is just a tool of intimidation. Wake up and stop signing it! You can say the Committee to Reform MUFON may not reach it's objectives, but the fact is, we are saying things no one else is saying or can say.
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:41:54 GMT -6
Do you think it might be possible for the members of MUFON to dis-own the BoD? If enough of the members were to take action maybe they could just take the organization away from the Board and establish a new system of management. I know it can be done with an internet forum, so why not a larger organization?
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:48:16 GMT -6
Another question that I would like to ask is about the fundraising. You say that you would like to get the BoD more involved in raising funds, but what I would really like to know is where would you like to see the extra money spent? Bigelow is spending all of his money on the STAR team, but where do you think it would be the most benificial?
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Post by elainedouglass on Mar 11, 2011 22:49:01 GMT -6
Morgan, you ask, what has changed that the USG might be trying to get active control of an organization like MUFON. thing is, we here in the UFO community, we tend to focus on what is happening to us, what we can see of the UFO "situation." What we forget is there is a huge reality that we don't see. the ETs, whoever they are, are a driven people. They are relentless, seeming to be constantly pushing their agenda forward. We see only a tiny part of it, but I anyway, get this feeling of relentlessness, pushing, pushing, working toward whatever it is they want here. We HAVE to assume the situation is dynamic. To us, it can look more static, years go by, UFOs are seen in the sky, people get abducted. It looks like it just going on and on in the same manner. But I don't think so. And what if the pressure was building behind the scenes in ways we can't see. Cause to some extent, we can see it. We can see the ETs speaking out. At one time you didn't hear them directly. All you heard was them THROUGH the abductees. Now we hear their voice on, say, Zetatalk, just one example. And what do we hear? We hear them say, We want to live among you, but your government has got to go. Yeah, I know about the supposed catastrophies. Who doesn't? But what I head is the political message: Your govt has got to go. To me, they're moving in, trying to isolate, trap, discredit the government. Obviously, the govt is hearing the same thing.
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sansseed
Full Member
Failure is not an option
Posts: 417
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Post by sansseed on Mar 11, 2011 22:49:03 GMT -6
Morgan--your question is, How is the Committee to Reform MUFON going to cause the Board of Directors to give up their right to appoint themselves and submit to democratic elections? Everyone is asking us that. We are not sure we can to that, but for some reason we are deeply engaged in trying. The way we have been going about it is to bring searching points before the members, raising the taboo issues nobody is supposed to talk about. For example, you say how can we get the Board to do that? Well, for starters, we're saying they should. Nobody in MUFON would dare to even say that. So for sure, if nobody can say it, it's not going to happen. So we're saying it. Beyond that, we are challenging the right MUFON is asserting to give everybody orders. There is a thing called the Background check form. that is something everyone in MUFON who is a field investigator is REQUIRED to sign. We're going to be telling the members in an email soon--Stop signing the damm thing!!! We're going to tell the members: Mufon has NO intention of doing a backgrund check on you. Know why? It costs $225! Therefore, the background check form is just a tool of intimidation. Wake up and stop signing it! You can say the Committee to Reform MUFON may not reach it's objectives, but the fact is, we are saying things no one else is saying or can say. So, you are trying to get the troops to question their commanders? (sorry for the military analogy) By doing so, maybe to raise a revolution of sorts? That can certainly do it. Without compliance, there can be no hierarchy.
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Post by mdaisy on Mar 11, 2011 22:50:29 GMT -6
Dear MDaisy, I regret to inform you you most certainly can demand from volunteers. Volunteers behave much like salaried employees. If you cultivate an authoritarian environment, they fall right in line. Not all do. Some, like Steve R, quit. but many remain, and if you assume a posture toward them as though you had a right to give them orders, they fall right in line with it. that is what is going on in MUFON now. The climate has been cultivated. Chuck Reever (mentioned) had a lot to do with it. A key part of cultivating this environment is ranking, stiff, rigid ranking. One person gives orders to you, and you (it seems) then have the right to give order to the person "below" you. I am showing you the psychology of it. Elaine thanks so much for your insight. I guess I am one of those volunteers who believe my volunteering is a gift and not a job. If I wanted to work, and was working, that is a different story as the boss can demand anything, well almost anything, as the boss pays the check. Volunteers are not paid.
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Post by Morgan Sierra on Mar 11, 2011 22:52:13 GMT -6
Morgan, you ask, what has changed that the USG might be trying to get active control of an organization like MUFON. thing is, we here in the UFO community, we tend to focus on what is happening to us, what we can see of the UFO "situation." What we forget is there is a huge reality that we don't see. the ETs, whoever they are, are a driven people. They are relentless, seeming to be constantly pushing their agenda forward. We see only a tiny part of it, but I anyway, get this feeling of relentlessness, pushing, pushing, working toward whatever it is they want here. We HAVE to assume the situation is dynamic. To us, it can look more static, years go by, UFOs are seen in the sky, people get abducted. It looks like it just going on and on in the same manner. But I don't think so. And what if the pressure was building behind the scenes in ways we can't see. Cause to some extent, we can see it. We can see the ETs speaking out. At one time you didn't hear them directly. All you heard was them THROUGH the abductees. Now we hear their voice on, say, Zetatalk, just one example. And what do we hear? We hear them say, We want to live among you, but your government has got to go. Yeah, I know about the supposed catastrophies. Who doesn't? But what I head is the political message: Your govt has got to go. To me, they're moving in, trying to isolate, trap, discredit the government. Obviously, the govt is hearing the same thing. Well, seeing as how I am not a big fan of the government I'm not sure I would argue with ET wanting to get rid of it. On the other hand, we could end up with something much worse...
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