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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 2:24:14 GMT -6
Doesn't it make a certain amount of sense that someone interested in UFO's would want to keep tabs on the organization that has (still) the best overall information and contacts in that field? In spite of organizational problems..there were field operatives and researchers and they actually had a fair lineup of the 'who's who' in Ufology. MUFON was taken more seriously than most UFO oriented forums. It makes sense to try and follow the information. Not as a 'groupie' but as a serious researcher..which Sky and several others here are. I am a 'one forum at a time' kind of person..I don't belong to or visit the others because I figure eventually anything that is posted elsewhere will find it's way here through Auntie's efforts or someone else's...but most of the people here do belong to multiples..including MUFON..so will you please quit with the cult thing and move onto something else?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 3:07:43 GMT -6
He doesn't even understand the definition of the word "cult" anyway. In my book that discredits all of his statements which use that word.
What he means by "cult" is "people who all share a common belief and it affects every aspect of their lives".
According to his definition of the word "cult" EVERY major religion and all life philosophies in the ENTIRE WORLD would be classified as a "cult".
Using his definition of that word: Catholics are cult-members, Jewish people are cult-members, Buddhists are cult-members and every other believer of anything belongs to a "cult". That's just not true and he doesn't seem to understand that because he lives in his own little world of fantasy where he knows everything and he defines what words mean even if the dictionary says he's wrong.
The only way he's going to get what he wants is if everyone agrees with what he thinks is the truth. He thinks he's God or something and that everyone should take him at his word.
Oh, well he thinks someone is a liar. That means that guy really IS a liar just because he thinks he is because he is always right.
Oh, well he thinks someone on this forum did something illegal and he has no proof of that. So he goes and accuses that someone of doing something illegal and is vehement about it. YOU DID IT!! I KNOW YOU DID!!! You probably look like him (even though I don't know what you look like or what he looked like).
Oh, well Lorelei is up in the early hours of the morning in my time zone. That means she doesn't have a job- even though I'm up at this hour too and I do have a job.
Just let him keep on thinking he's right about everything. He won't admit that his opinion is not the true word of God because he honestly believes that everything he thinks is the god-honest truth and everyone should go along with him and follow him blindly without any evidence and without a dictionary to validate his beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 3:17:12 GMT -6
From now on the word "Blue" means forest. It is so because I say it is so. There. From now on whenever anyone uses the word "Blue" it means what I want it to mean. I decree it so. Believe it. If you don't believe it, you're wrong. ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 10:13:00 GMT -6
Well actually I was going to say that it shouldn't matter to anyone how anyone else wants to divide his/her time. On any grand scale..why would it matter what organizations anyone belongs to? Are we realllllllllllly that short of subjects???
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Post by skywalker on May 5, 2012 11:29:09 GMT -6
One of the reasons why I am involved with so many different organizations is so I can stay informed about what is going on so I can keep the people here up to date. It would be kind of difficult to be the admin here if I didn't have the slightest clue what people were talking about. I would always be like, "Huh? What?" Of course that's kind of the way I am most of the time anyway...
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Post by Steve on May 5, 2012 12:26:31 GMT -6
I not quite sure about all the discussions. The 'cult' comment by another is ridiculous. My impression is it is more a support group with a diverse and stimulating variance of opinions here as I see it. Others are free to belong to many web site forums if they choose to. But some personalities on the web enjoy multiple user names at different forums are more inclined to use hit and run tactics not having formed a relationship with a single forum. Someone's lack of investment in a single forum sometimes can translate to some as 'I can be rude or inconsiderate since they can always bounce to other web sites'. I personally stay at one place. I have too many friends made here and know they may need an ear to listen to them. In UFO abduction research you are dealing with a complex subject and situations with many dealing with something they sensibly cannot understand. I am here to learn, and feel there is much to learn. Experiencers have faced the mystery face to face. Anyone who says they do understand about all that deals with UFO abductions isn't being truthful, because no body does - except the aliens themselves, and most are not divulging. Someone comes into this forum and without learning or listening to anyone first, just announces to everyone it is all nonsense without even trying to understand. Like an idiot who enters a hospital quadriplegia ward and thinks everyone can be rid of their affliction by just exercise and eating right. Hello? This analogy is probably not a good comparison because we are not really all fully sure what experiencers are dealing with. They appear to be living outwardly perfectly normal lives, but inwardly they are dealing with a big unknown that they describe can take control of their lives at any time for it's own purposes. (not bosses- but aliens... ). Many in the UFO field who you would think would be familiar to some extent abduction phenomenon, the most challenging, complex and controversial area of UFO research would know better. Most seem to not be so. Some even disagree it even could occur. That is all fine, but what do they have to support that view? They usually cannot do so adequately. Many even it turns out are abductees themselves either in denial, or been conditioned by their abductors to spread disinformation to cloud and contribute to the cover. Their seems to be some scraps of evidence to support this too. Elaine Douglass has used some less than hoannable means in her hoannable cause. Several times she has interviewed me over the phone in the past recording our conversations without telling me. I only know this because once Douglass admitted this to me...at the end of our phone conversation. This is illegal! She confuses imagining being ruthless with unethical practices. She becomes as unethical as the dragon she perceives she is attempting to slay. Sorry, stay away. Others have said other less flattering things about her which I prefer left out. Like I write, from others. The Mufon BOD will not ever relinquish their control as Elaine imagines. Would the perceived Intel people embedded loose their Intel link to their bosses (CIA or Bigelow) simply by being voted out? Not likely. Everything is as they wish it to be. The mufon FI's feeding them any potential high strangeness case info, while the FI erroneously thinks it is all somehow all for the good of all humanity. If that was so, where is the volumes of case and data analysis? Where is the academic dissertations of collected data? There never has been any such analysis except my UFO monthly maps. Mufon does not know what analysis is or apparently never will. Seems mufon basic structure is not built that way. Bigelow at first I welcomed when I joined the first Star Team. Perhaps with financing of investigations, something unprecedented could be accomplished. Then a few months into the Star Team, we were then divulged by the Star Team manager himself (Lang), the data would NOT be shared - we were being paid to gather information not for some silly notion of 'for humanity', but to Bigelow himself. Simply money for information. More specifically, any information about an alien technology that might give Bigelow a big advantage over his aerospace competitors. So another untruth when we first joined. The information would not be shared - unless the investigator keeps copies of their own files too. Bigelow it turns out is a black hole of information in space. What ever goes into the whole, does not ever come out. What few know is how close we all on this planet came to loosing another important UFO data base. Peter Davenport's UFO data base NUFORC (National UFO Reporting Center) was approached by Robert Bigelow Inc.. A close friend recently confided several years ago how Mr. Davenport as extensively wined and dined for some time by Bigelow. Bigelow wanted to purchase from Peter and control his entire huge UFO public data base! Not just the public info, but the confidential witness contact information as well not displayed on Davenport's website. It was described to me second hand what Linda Moulton Howe (who also works for Bigelow) confirmed on her website what Bigelows huge office looks like. Filled with erotic art not very...well..... it might be as she described as very male chauvainist. He is surrounded with attractive 'assistants' which to me sounds more like trophies. (Hope for Bigelows sake they can at least type....). Peter I was told thought long and hard, and once he entered Bigelows office - and heard the ridiculously small sum Davenport was offered - literally at the last minute, Davenport refused thank goodness. Davenport remembered all the work in time and effort he had put into his data base over the years, and come to his senses just in time. Davenport is also independently wealthy too, having developed and sold a software firm he built and sold. Had Peter 'sold out', imagine where the public would be attempting to access any UFO data now? Send Mr. Davenport a thank you please. Interesting that Mufon's BOD Chuck Reever has coincidently been Nevada's state director as well. Makes things 'efficient' for Reever, the same person caught concealing high strangeness cases in the Mufon's CMS - how that Bigelow lives in the same state. Like the line for the old movie 'War of the Worlds' (1953) when the General describes the tactics employed by the invading Martians - "where ever the Martians go, one thing is certain, no more information is ever heard from that area again". The same it seems is the case with Robert Bigelow. Government concealing information? Possibly al true. A bigger threat in information disappearing from researchers may appear to be from none other than Robert Bigelow. Time for UFOlogy to wake up and see the changes taking place. We came that close to loosing Davenport. Fortunately Davenport has remained independent and avoided the precipice - and basically for himself and for the rest of us has told Bigelow - No thanks! Steve Billionare Robert Bigelow's estate in Las Vegas.
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Post by skywalker on May 5, 2012 13:02:56 GMT -6
Bigelow is bad news. I've been saying that for years. I think he is the worst thing to ever happen to ufology simply because he buys everything and shares nothing. The fact that so few people realize that is adding to the problem. People and organizations keep forming alliances with him thinking they are going to reap huge financial rewards from it only to find that as soon as Bigelow gets the info he wants he disappears and takes his money with him. He already destroyed NICAP, and he came very close to destroying MUFON. Many other smaller UFO report gathering organizations have also been swallowed up by him as well. It is a very good thing NUFORC wasn't...thanks to Davenport's ability to resist temptation and just say "no." I applaud Peter for that.
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Post by Steve on May 5, 2012 17:09:37 GMT -6
Seems BOD Chuck Reever announced his retirement from the mufon BOD this last March 31, 2012 (though he will be available 'for consultation and special projects'). A new replacement has been selected from the BOD's new 'intern pool'. Reever was also a Star Team admin, and is being replaced in that function by Chuck Moudlin. Hope more are phased out in the coming weeks and months. IMO, could not have come soon enough. The BOD watch continues....
Steve
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Post by skywalker on May 5, 2012 17:51:59 GMT -6
I don't know if replacing Reever with Moudlin is an improvement. I've always suspected Moudlin of having connections with Bigelow also and From what Chase Kloetzke said in one of the interviews she gave it was Moudlin who was demanding that she turn over all of the STAR team info she had to him. She claimed that was why she quit. It could be that Bigelow's man Reever hand-picked Bigelow's man Moudlin as his replacement before he left.
Is he also going to be on the BoD or is he just acting as the STAR team manager?
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Post by Steve on May 5, 2012 20:53:31 GMT -6
I don't know if replacing Reever with Moudlin is an improvement. I've always suspected Moudlin of having connections with Bigelow also and From what Chase Kloetzke said in one of the interviews she gave it was Moudlin who was demanding that she turn over all of the STAR team info she had to him. She claimed that was why she quit. It could be that Bigelow's man Reever hand-picked Bigelow's man Moudlin as his replacement before he left. Is he also going to be on the BoD or is he just acting as the STAR team manager? I cannot say who would be an improvement or not. I am as apprehensive of Mouldin too. However all my personal dealings with Mouldin in Mufon were always positive and cordial. I do not doubt Chase K's experience with Mouldlin though, I heard it from her first hand. I was surprised Mouldlin acted that way. Chase was then the new (second or third?) new Star Team manager - and was protecting her new turf (turf wars are common in mufoon land) denying Mouldlin access (he technically was not on some list - but Moudlin was also the Star teams Technical adviser - so go figure). though it was admittedly known but not dwelled upon too much - Chase then was very inexperienced. She rose fast by force of her personality. I had done many many more cases than she had. But I would never have wanted the position if it was even offered. I was already on my way out of mufon then anyway resigning in October 2010. Chase already not soon later began to see many of the same things perhaps I did. I do not know if Reever could be considered 'Bigelows Man'. I have suggested the possibility of that, but never stated it plainly. That is your assumption based on my posts. I do know reever was a board member formerly in a fortune 500 corporation - so him and Bigelow would have that co-incidence. Reever would know how to operate in that corporate environment if it was ever true. I suspect the disappearing cases Lang caught Reever with was admitted to Lang by Reever. Lang never knew why. Was it for covering Intel or records of a government response (military helicopters landing on the spot where a UFO and entities had been just hours before) or was it for Bigelow? The issue with that case between the then Director of Investigations and the new Star team head (Lang) was probably the new situation internally in Mufon and both now had the same level of permissions of CMS access. It is possible Reever was feeding info to someone - and the new Star team access level suddenly introduced exposed that? Again...more silly turf wars. That reason mainly along with the concerns about evidence Intel people were the BOD (which in itself is not ominous - Intel people are curious about UFOs too - it just ominous there seemed to be so many congregating in one place. Steve
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Post by skywalker on May 5, 2012 21:58:08 GMT -6
I suspect all of the Board members to be secretly working with Bigelow. That doesn't mean that they all are, and I'm sure some of them aren't, but since we don't know who is working for who I will just look at them all suspiciously. I doubt that anybody will ever really know the truth about what is really going on there. I guess it doesn't really make any difference. It's just business as usual.
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pigswillfly
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Post by pigswillfly on May 5, 2012 22:17:18 GMT -6
... and the plot thickens. The thing I don't understand is why Mufon needs all these big wigs on it's BOD in the first place. It's not a multi-million dollar operation that needs their business accumin, if anything they have always struggled with finances. The BOD allowance isn't a huge amount (didn't JC mention a sum of $6,000), that's peanuts to some of these people. What's in it for them?
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Post by ufo4peace on May 5, 2012 22:37:02 GMT -6
Well transparecy is a double edged sword. We can all point fingers and turn around an play the sympathy card gathering information from abductees but where does your information go? And why is it so important to keep tabs on past and present MUFON BoDs, MUFON members and people that participate on internet forums? Yo really don't need to know about everyone to do good UFO research. Just because you distance yourself away from MUFON doesn't mean you are innocent.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 22:44:00 GMT -6
Well transparecy is a double edged sword. We can all point fingers and turn around an play the sympathy card gathering information from abductees but where does your information go? And why is it so important to keep tabs on past and present MUFON BoDs, MUFON members and people that participate on internet forums? Yo really don't need to know about everyone to do good UFO research. Just because you distance yourself away from MUFON doesn't mean you are innocent. Well, if we are not innocent I guess that means we're guilty. What are we guilty of? Understanding the real definition of the word "cult"?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 10:14:02 GMT -6
Shhhhhhhhhhh...it's a secret. "The Walker" is a Grey/human hybrid on earth to confuse the general population. His mission is one of the highest level of security..infiltrating all forums spreading misinformation about Grey activity on planet earth so that the REAL mission can be carried out without interference. It seems to be working as you're much more interested in his activities...
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Post by ufo4peace on May 6, 2012 21:14:51 GMT -6
EVERY major religion and all life philosophies in the ENTIRE WORLD would be classified as a "cult". Using his definition of that word: Catholics are cult-members, Jewish people are cult-members, Buddhists are cult-members and every other believer of anything belongs to a "cult". Yep, cults.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 21:23:40 GMT -6
OK then. Here is more information proving you have no idea what you're talking about UFO4p: Here is a website I found: equip.org/articles/is-catholicism-a-cult/Quoted from the above posted link: Is Catholicism a Cult- Ten Reasons Why Catholicism Is Not a Cult
What those who label Catholicism a cult do not seem to understand is that even if one considers Catholicism to be unscriptural and greatly mistaken on many important doctrinal issues (certainly this writer does), it is simply misplaced and erroneous — for a variety of reasons — to classify Roman Catholicism as an anti-Christian cult. Let me give ten reasons why I say this.9
(1) Cults, generally speaking, are small splinter groups with a fairly recent origin. Most American-based cults, for example, have to a greater or lesser degree splintered off from other Christian groups, and emerged in the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Catholicism, on the other hand, is the largest body within Christendom, having almost a two-thousand-year history (it has historical continuity with apostolic, first century Christianity), and is the ecclesiastical tree from which Protestantism originally splintered.
(2) Cults are usually formed, molded, and controlled by a single individual or small group. The Catholic church, by contrast, has been molded by an incalculable number of people throughout its long history. Catholicism is governed by creeds, councils, and the ongoing magisterium.
(3) Cults typically exercise rigid control over their members and demand unquestioning submission, with disobedience punished by shunning and/or excommunication. While Catholicism has exercised a triumphalism and an unhealthy control over its members in times past, this is far less true today, especially since the Second Vatican Council. Contemporary Catholicism’s broad diversity as illustrated in Part One of this series certainly proves this point.
(4) An appropriate description of a cult is “a religious group originating as a heretical sect and maintaining fervent commitment to heresy.”10 Regardless of one’s criticism of Catholicism, even if it is heretical at certain points, it does not fit this description. It does not originate in heresy, and, as was mentioned before, it possesses a structural orthodoxy that other cults simply do not have (see comparison chart).
(5) Cults (when defined as heretical sects) are classified as such because of their outright denial or rejection of essential Christian doctrine. Historically, this has principally been a denial of the nature of God (the Trinity), the nature of the incarnate Christ (divine-human), and of the absolute necessity of divine grace in salvation (the Pelagian controversy).11 While Protestants have accused Catholicism of having an illegitimate authority and of confusing the gospel (two serious charges to be examined later), Catholicism does affirm the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, and that salvation is ultimately a gift of God’s grace (a rejection of Pelagianism).12 I challenge anyone to name a recognized cult that affirms the Trinity or the full deity and humanity of Jesus Christ (see comparison chart).
(6) Cults frequently have a low view of the Bible, replacing or supplementing it with their own so-called “sacred writings.” In fact, cults often argue that the Bible has been, to some extent, corrupted and therefore their writings are needed to restore the truth. While Catholicism’s acceptance of noncanonical writings (the Apocrypha) and placing of apostolic tradition on par with Scripture are fundamental problems to the Protestant, Catholics nevertheless retain a high view of the Bible (inspired and infallible) and see it as their central source of revelation.
(7) Cults usually have some kind of authoritarian, totalistic leader or prophet. While some feel that the pope fits this category, in reality the pope governs the church with heavy dependence upon the bishops (college of cardinals), and within the restrictions of the official teaching of the church. Protestants clearly disagree with the authority and exalted titles given the pope, but he still does not fit the category of a cult leader.
(8) A frequent characteristic of cults is their emphasis on a “remnant identity” — that is, they claim to be God’s exclusive agent or people who restore “authentic Christianity,” which has been corrupted or lost. Usually this type of restorationism has an accompanying anticreedal and antihistorical mindset. While Catholicism has at times been guilty of an unfortunate exclusivity13 (some Protestant churches have also), they emphatically deny restorationism, and strongly emphasize the continuity of God’s church throughout history.
(9) Those who classify Roman Catholicism as a cult (an inauthentic and invalid expression of Christianity) usually also give the Eastern Orthodox church the same classification. What they do not realize, however, is that if both of these religious bodies are non-Christian, then there was no authentic Christian church during most of the medieval period. Contrary to what some Protestants think, there was no independent, nondenominational, Bible-believing church on the corner (or in the caves) during most of the Middle Ages.14 Additionally, the schismatic groups who were around at the time were grossly heretical.15 So much for the gates of hell not prevailing against the church (Matt. 16:18). Some try to sidestep this argument by reasoning that as long as there were even a few individuals who remained biblically orthodox apart from the institutional or organized church, then those select individuals constituted God’s authentic church (a remnant) — thus the church was never truly overcome. This thinking, though containing an element of truth, is not completely correct. It is true that the church has an invisible16 and local dimension to it, but it also has a visible and organizational dimension (John 17:21). While the church is primarily a community of believers, it also functions as an institution through which believers encounter the ministry of the Word and the sacraments (baptism and the Lord’s Supper). Scripture does not allow for the sharp distinction between the spiritual and organizational dimensions of the church that some would like to draw.17
(10) Even with the serious problems evident in Roman Catholic theology from a Protestant point of view, Catholic doctrine overall does not fit the pattern of the recognized cult groups (see comparison chart). Catholicism affirms most of what the cults deny and possesses an orthodox foundation which all cult groups lack.
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Post by ufo4peace on May 6, 2012 21:33:24 GMT -6
More specifically, any information about an alien technology that might give Bigelow a big advantage over his aerospace competitors. Seriously doubt that. The white world can't go there.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2012 10:19:12 GMT -6
*chokes*
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 1:22:55 GMT -6
Curious.
Any one have any idea where Bigelow was at the time of the Condon report?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 9:39:06 GMT -6
No idea where he might have been but this article is kind of interesting..concerning his acquisition of the 'skinwalker' ranch.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 17:51:37 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 10:19:29 GMT -6
Wasn't the same one but close enough..evidently it's caught a bit of attention. Trust people to 'buy into' something already established as noteworthy ;D
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Post by skywalker on May 12, 2012 10:42:20 GMT -6
Curious. Any one have any idea where Bigelow was at the time of the Condon report? The Condon report came out in 1968 so Bigelow would have been 23 years old at the time. This was back before he amassed his huge fortune as a hotel chain owner and long before he founded his aerospace company.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 11:18:31 GMT -6
Thanks Sky .
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 11:44:02 GMT -6
Wasn't the same one but close enough..evidently it's caught a bit of attention. Trust people to 'buy into' something already established as noteworthy ;D Going with the flow here ;D . As I commented on another thread, why would someone 'buy into' mufon, especially after the C. report? even if the "skinwalker ranch" story is untrue, it has been commented that money was made selling a lot of books about this story. Going with that flow, how did someone like me get involved with muffin? When I decided to study the ufo phenomenon issue, every single book I read that talked about a sighting or experience, had the added words immediately before or after this detail : AS REPORTED TO MUFFIN (or something similar) ;D . (I have no desire to return to muffin's forum. That being said, I initially had no desire to be a part of muffin's forum to begin with. I initially went there because I was led to believe (from books ) that it was the place to go for more information. I was aware that there were other "ufo" sites and forums on the internet. Did I get what I wanted from visiting muffin? No. I found myself being distracted. . . Now, if muffin has some "inside information" other than gossip, I trust it will make its way here to TEOR).
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